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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:34 am
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brucefulton wrote:
I haven't heard of it ever getting better.
I think there were some mentions in this thread of the problem getting better.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:47 am
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Aspiring Musician
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At this point I don't think fender will be doing anything to correct this situation for several reasons
-as this seems to be a hardware related issue this would demand massive recalls of amps in a moment that is not the most financially flourishing for Fender from what I heard
-Any firmware fix would include using at least part of the DSP power to correct the issue, crippling the amp of some of the existing features
-Developers are surelly already working on the next generation amp and will not go back to the Mustang unless some catastrophic failure appears

and all this in the context of the Mustang selling very well (it's the amp they sell the most nowadays from what I heard at a guitarcenter)

I think the best solution would be, next time buy from another company.

So all this detour to say that if we want some sort of workaround, at this point, it will come from users.

Going back to my suggestion of previous posts os using a sine chrorus, the idea is the following:
-chorus copies the original signal and lets you modify it before mixing the copy with the original signal again.
-one of the settings you can modify on the copied signal is the phase
-the idea is to play with the phase knob until the mixed result has a diminished harmonic signal right where the power amp resonates (read trial and error here)
-The power amp will still resonate and restore part of the diminished signal so the overall sound should not suffer in a detectable way

I don't think Fender will ever suggest a solution like this, even if it works, as this would cripple the amp when using clean amps (as you are using the mod effect just to fix the fizz and you lose the capacity os using any other mod effect with clean amp models)

I'm still curious to see if in any other cases playing with the phase knob at least improves the situation.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:36 pm
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Is there any info on production numbers for 2012 on the Mustang III? I would think an 86 page thread on a Fender website and other forums would have an effect! They(Fender) must be getting massive complaints? You would think, right? Will the Mustang line continue? Most popular seller? Wow! They have a big problem.....just my thoughts tho....I have a Mustang III amp and It has no "Fizz". I did contact Fender and I asked them when my amp was built. The response I received was 12-2011. Reading most of this thread seems like most if not, all problem mustang III amps were built in 2010.....I'm I correct in my thinking here? Did I miss any posts stating amps built in 2011 have any "Fizz"?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:17 pm
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From this thread, actually, all 86 pages, of which I've read every message and relayed my personal conversations with both Fender marketing and Fender technical reps to contribute to the community knowledge. If you would read all 86 pages and perhaps talk to Fender reps yourself, you would know what has been tried and what has been said, and what has been ruled in and ruled out, from a very large number of contributors. How about you call Fender tech support, discuss the issue and post back what you learned, like many others posting to this thread have done?

You'd serve the community better by focusing less on me and more on the problem.
strings10927 wrote:
wow, I wonder where "the expert" gets all that inside information! :shock: So cool to have a real insider here on the forum! I bet he knows inside info about Roswell and the 9/11 conspiracy too....


Last edited by brucefulton on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:26 pm
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The couple of isolated cases where people have reported this aren't convincing to me that fizz was the problem. Some of the posters reporting fizz have actually had other problems or noticed other artifacts. For example, hum due to lack of proper grounding or RF interference have been initially reported as possible fizz but don't really fit the description.
mpr wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
I haven't heard of it ever getting better.
I think there were some mentions in this thread of the problem getting better.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:14 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
From this thread, actually, all 86 pages, of which I've read every message and relayed my personal conversations with both Fender marketing and Fender technical reps to contribute to the community knowledge. If you would read all 86 pages and perhaps talk to Fender reps yourself, you would know what has been tried and what has been said, and what has been ruled in and ruled out, from a very large number of contributors. How about you call Fender tech support, discuss the issue and post back what you learned, like many others posting to this thread have done?
strings10927 wrote:
wow, I wonder where "the expert" gets all that inside information! :shock: So cool to have a real insider here on the forum! I bet he knows inside info about Roswell and the 9/11 conspiracy too....


Brucefulton, please don't feel obligated to respond to ad hominem attacks. Many of us appreciate your informative posts and personal efforts to get to the bottom of this matter. We look forward to any additional contributions you might make.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:22 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Hey guys,

I have another finding to share, that might help some other people with moderate fizz problems. Is totally counter-intuitive so probably nobody tested it before :roll:


I discover that in my case the point whre the sound artifacts are more noticeable are when the master volume is at 2.5-3
If I increase the master volume around 5 or 6 the artifacts are totally indetectable.

Please try the following:
-select preset 93
-set your guitar volume around 9 or 10
-set the amp master volume to around 2 or 3
-play the 6th string on 7th fret at let it ring for a couple seconds and pay attention to background artifacts
-now incresase the amp master volume to 7, you might need to add a noise gate to lower the background noise if it gets anoying at this volume (particluarly with single coils)
-decrease the guitar volume until you get the overall total volume you had at the begining of the experiment
-play again your 6th string on 7th fret... I can't hear any more artifacts for the life of me...

My theory is that for some crazy reason the artifacts clean up when increasing the master volume... 8)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:33 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
Hey guys,

I have another finding to share, that might help some other people with moderate fizz problems. Is totally counter-intuitive so probably nobody tested it before :roll:


I discover that in my case the point whre the sound artifacts are more noticeable are when the master volume is at 2.5-3
If I increase the master volume around 5 or 6 the artifacts are totally indetectable.

Please try the following:
-select preset 93
-set your guitar volume around 9 or 10
-set the amp master volume to around 2 or 3
-play the 6th string on 7th fret at let it ring for a couple seconds and pay attention to background artifacts
-now incresase the amp master volume to 7, you might need to add a noise gate to lower the background noise if it gets anoying at this volume (particluarly with single coils)
-decrease the guitar volume until you get the overall total volume you had at the begining of the experiment
-play again your 6th string on 7th fret... I can't hear any more artifacts for the life of me...

My theory is that for some crazy reason the artifacts clean up when increasing the master volume... 8)


But, that raises the question of whether the fizz not being heard is a result of raising the master volume, or of lowering the guitar volume, which brings DSP issues back into play.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:37 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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I do not agree on that point, I ask to lower the guitar volume so you do not get evicted from your appartment but simply increasing the master volume makes the artifacts dissapear.
I think the issue, if confirmed, is related to the power amp on the Mustangs working at a low power, and nothin else.

It would be cool to have confirmation from a couple folks.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:33 am
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cormorant wrote:
Brucefulton, please don't feel obligated to respond to ad hominem attacks. Many of us appreciate your informative posts and personal efforts to get to the bottom of this matter. We look forward to any additional contributions you might make.

I'm sorry, but this just reeks of B.S.:

brucefulton wrote:
Fender has done what they need to do to know what the problem is.

brucefulton wrote:
And they know what the problem and its solution is.

brucefulton wrote:
And they've decided not to do anything about it for now.

If you want to think the "authorized Fender rep" at your local guitar center has any clue what is going on behind the scenes at Fender, be your own guest. I just hope there aren't any youngsters out there reading this and taking it seriously. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:24 am
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Posts: 226
jedi2b wrote:
I do not agree on that point, I ask to lower the guitar volume so you do not get evicted from your appartment but simply increasing the master volume makes the artifacts dissapear.
I think the issue, if confirmed, is related to the power amp on the Mustangs working at a low power, and nothin else.

It would be cool to have confirmation from a couple folks.



I tried it, but the fizz was the same, at least at bedroom levels. I used my Fender Jazzmaster, and first started with my normal Twin setting which has Volume at about 8, and Master volume at 3. Then I turned the Volume to zero, brought the Master Volume up to 10 and slowly raised Volume enough to bring the loudness up to the same level as before. There was no difference in fizz or tone. It was six of one, half dozen of another.

We just started rehearsing for a December show of Christmas classics where it will be me on vocals with my Jazzmaster (using the rhythm circuit), and my female partner on vocals and flute. The venue will be a library that has great acoustics, with an audience of about 50 people. On some of these songs I'm mostly simulating bass notes on my guitar because the songs are primarily vocal harmonies-oriented. I'll be bringing my tube amp with tremolo & chorus pedals to this gig. I can't risk the MIII fizzing in this setting where people are sitting quietly and listening.

One other thing that might be related to the fizz. My MIII is very bassy. There are some settings, like the Deluxe Reverb, where I have to normally set bass at 4.5 and sometimes bring it all the way down because it rattles the recessed lighting bulbs in the ceiling, at low volume levels! I happen to like this bassiness, because being in a duo where there is no bass guitar, it adds those frequencies to the mix. I've tried the MIII speaker in my other amp, and that bass-response is not there no matter how much I try, so it's the amp, not the speaker.

From what I've read here, not everyone's MIII, IV or V seems to be bassy like this. I wonder if that's why some fizz and some don't?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:52 am
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brucefulton wrote:
The couple of isolated cases where people have reported this aren't convincing to me that fizz was the problem. Some of the posters reporting fizz have actually had other problems or noticed other artifacts. For example, hum due to lack of proper grounding or RF interference have been initially reported as possible fizz but don't really fit the description.
mpr wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
I haven't heard of it ever getting better.
I think there were some mentions in this thread of the problem getting better.

I'm almost convinced my amp is cured.

All I can tell you is I never noticed fizz on my amp until after this thread started and I went looking for it (around July or August last year). 7th fret low E string sustaining note on a clean setting - I could very clearly hear the same exact sound you hear in this sample...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6H3gFU6e7o
And I could reproduce it every time I played 7th fret low E string sustaining note on a clean setting.

It never bothered me, but out of curiosity I've done periodic fizz checks (maybe once a month give or take) over the past year. About the first six months I could always reproduce that sound in the link. After that I noticed that it was getting harder to detect, but I could usually find at least one amp model that I could still hear it.

After the last resurgence of this topic I've began checking again a little more frequently. This morning I went through all the Fender models on clean settings, and played the 7th fret low E string sustaining note, I'm here to tell you I could not reproduce the sound in the youtube video.

I can hear 60 cycle hum. I can hear electrical noise on some settings. I can hear a very faint phazer type sound way off in the background on some settings. But I do not hear the fizz as it is heard in the youtube video, whereas I could very clearly hear it before.

My amp was manufactured 11 2010.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:55 am
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Interesting.
In my case, the few digital artifacts I can hear at low volumes of master amp knob simply get masked by the overall volume and noise as they apparently are not amplified at the same level of the guitar signal when cranking the amp master volume.

Now that I have a trained ear :) I can hear those artifacts on any amp model including Metal 2000, if playing at low master volumes, only single notes, and paying a LOT of attention, but the most evident ones are probably Twin and Bassman. It's like a sitar sound that starts around 1 second after the note is ringing and varies a bit on pitch for the duration of the note.

The other thing I noticed is that it happen with any string but because the artifacts do not change much in frequency (or they become to high frequency that the speaker can not reproduce them), and are pretty treble, you can only hear them clearly enough when plucking the 6th string.

My M3 does not sound bassy at all, that is, compared to other guitar amps I have heard. If your does, combined with the fact explained in the previous paragraph could explain why you hear it more. I'm starting to believe your power amp section is somewhat damaged in some way.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:51 am
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jedi2b wrote:
I'm starting to believe your power amp section is somewhat damaged in some way.


Well if so, I'm not going to do anything about it. I actually got a compliment on the MIII's bass response at a noisy fundraiser gig last year. I had used the Deluxe Reverb setting and the bass notes punched right through the crowd noise--something my tube amp doesn't do.

We've been asked back to do that gig again this month, and I'll be bringing the MIII. The fizz is totally inaudible in that kind of environment. In addition to the wonderful bass response, the MIII's light weight, lack of tube worry, and no pedalboard taking up floor space make it the clear winner for that situation.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:59 am
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I totally agree on the advantages of M3 in that situation.
You might want to give it a try using the princeton preset as it is very clean, but having more harmonics might mask the fizz in case it appears at the worst possible moment.
I think the twin and bassman would be your worst choices in the same respect.


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