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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:51 am
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jesseblevins@gmail.com wrote:
Does anyone know if the Mustang Floor has the same fizz or develops it over time?

Again, a very reasonable inquiry... any opinions so far regarding "fizzing" on the Mustang Floor? Anyone? TIA. :?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:59 am
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I have not seen any reports of a fizzing Mustang Floor. The general consensus around here seems to be that they do not and will not "fizz". :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:02 am
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Aspiring Musician
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I want to make a step aside from the ranting and get into technical stuff, to try to find a workaround if possible.

So far, after reading and listening to all fizz samples I came across what I THINK is happening is that for some reason the power amp of the Mustang is resonating under certains circumstances to:
-the second harmonic
-the third harmonic
-both of them

When I get the opportunity I will try to use either the pitch shifter effect, or chorus effects to try to simulate, exacerbate or diminish the fizz.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:58 pm
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Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:39 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
I want to make a step aside from the ranting and get into technical stuff, to try to find a workaround if possible.

So far, after reading and listening to all fizz samples I came across what I THINK is happening is that for some reason the power amp of the Mustang is resonating under certains circumstances to:
-the second harmonic
-the third harmonic
-both of them

When I get the opportunity I will try to use either the pitch shifter effect, or chorus effects to try to simulate, exacerbate or diminish the fizz.


FINALLY!!!!

I've had the thought that this MAY be tracked down to the Class D power supply, which I suspect is common among the III, IV, and V. Perhaps some parasitics of the switching showing up somewhere and they aren't being filtered out.

Just a thought.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:44 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:36 pm
Posts: 182
Been there before. All sounds good until you look at the board and realize that the whole thing is a couple of proprietary ASICs and some basic buffering components plus the requisite control touchpoints. There's nothing to fix. That's how it costs $300. Fender knows what the problem is. A fix will require redesign of the custom ICs.

If you could fix it with filtered power supplies, noise gates, settings, recording software, etc. etc. Fender would be the first to tell you how to do it. And a host of users would be the second. But this has been going on for nearly two years with no resolution.

The only workaround is to ignore it if you can (and many people can), or trade it in if you can't (and some people can't). Trying to mask it with effects is like burning scented candles to disguise a funky couch. It will get fixed when, and only when, Fender redesigns the ICs. Until then, even if you figure out what it is, there's nothing to fix.

thompal wrote:
jedi2b wrote:
I want to make a step aside from the ranting and get into technical stuff, to try to find a workaround if possible.

So far, after reading and listening to all fizz samples I came across what I THINK is happening is that for some reason the power amp of the Mustang is resonating under certains circumstances to:
-the second harmonic
-the third harmonic
-both of them

When I get the opportunity I will try to use either the pitch shifter effect, or chorus effects to try to simulate, exacerbate or diminish the fizz.


FINALLY!!!!

I've had the thought that this MAY be tracked down to the Class D power supply, which I suspect is common among the III, IV, and V. Perhaps some parasitics of the switching showing up somewhere and they aren't being filtered out.

Just a thought.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:55 am
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Location: New York
the "expert" has spoken. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:32 am
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:13 pm
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I know I 'm not going to worry about it, the fizz is so low you cant notice it... I have yet to notice or worry about it at gigs.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:49 pm
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Posts: 182
So prove me wrong.

strings10927 wrote:
the "expert" has spoken.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:19 pm
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Posts: 824
I'm away from my amp for a few days, but as soon as I have some time this is the plan I have in mind

-play through the amp s pure sine wave at different frequencies and amplitudes , and hopefully been able to make the amp "fizz" loud enough to capture it using a mic (this is the part I'm less confident with as I can hardly hear it)
-capture the output with a mic and try to find out wich harmonics are "fabricated" by the amp (easy to detect with the Twin amp emulation as it does not have any harmonics with minimal gain, so any harmonic in this case would be suspect)
-identify which harmonic(s) is(are) creating the fizz. My best guess so far are the octave and 5th harmonics
-try to find an effect that will create this (these) harmonics and try to dephase it from the dry signal from 180 degrees, adjust the effect level until the fizz is cancelled, I expect to use VERY low levels (otherwise the clean sound will not be clean anymore...). Some effects to try could be Pitch Shift, Phaser, Chorus, Delay.
Worst case if no effects work we could try a cheap equalizer on the efects loop (Behringer are under 25$ i think) to clamp down the problematic frequency and limit the resonance on the power amp.

In theory, this should clean up the sound at least in part.

I anybody wants to try this with a badly fizzing amp it would help as mine is almost indetectable


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:19 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:08 am
Posts: 824
I'm away from my amp for a few days, but as soon as I have some time this is the plan I have in mind

-play through the amp s pure sine wave at different frequencies and amplitudes , and hopefully been able to make the amp "fizz" loud enough to capture it using a mic (this is the part I'm less confident with as I can hardly hear it)
-capture the output with a mic and try to find out wich harmonics are "fabricated" by the amp (easy to detect with the Twin amp emulation as it does not have any harmonics with minimal gain, so any harmonic in this case would be suspect)
-identify which harmonic(s) is(are) creating the fizz. My best guess so far are the octave and 5th harmonics
-try to find an effect that will create this (these) harmonics and try to dephase it from the dry signal from 180 degrees, adjust the effect level until the fizz is cancelled, I expect to use VERY low levels (otherwise the clean sound will not be clean anymore...). Some effects to try could be Pitch Shift, Phaser, Chorus, Delay.
Worst case if no effects work we could try a cheap equalizer on the efects loop (Behringer are under 25$ i think) to clamp down the problematic frequency and limit the resonance on the power amp.

In theory, this should clean up the sound at least in part.

I anybody wants to try this with a badly fizzing amp it would help as mine is almost indetectable


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:30 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:36 pm
Posts: 182
If your amp is barely fizzing, it may certainly be possible to mask it with effects. But what if it fizzes and you don't want the effects? What if you don't want the phase or noisegate or chorus or whatever? Some people claim not to hear it in any case and according to many reports in the thread, some fizz much worse than others and fizz can vary over time, and get worse. I haven't heard of it ever getting better. But some amps don't fizz, or don't fizz enough to bother their owners for their intended use.

I disagree somewhat with your analysis of the fizz. This may be an early manifestation of a fizzing amp in early stages of fizzing, but on badly fizzing amps, the decay envelope is considerably more complex and pronounced than you are describing. Since you are barely hearing it, I don't think you are working with what some of us have experienced as a badly fizzing amp. Listen carefully both to the link posted in the very first message in this thread, and also the trace comparing a non-fizzing mustang1 with a fizzing mustang3 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6H3gFU6e7o These are pretty obvious and, at least in my opinion, well beyond masking for anyone wanting clean jazz/acoustic tones.

By all means run your tests. But it doesn't sound like your amp is at the stage where your results are going to be generally applicable to badly fizzing amps. So if you come back and say you've cured it, I'm not sure what you will have cured. Anyway, carry on.

jedi2b wrote:
I'm away from my amp for a few days, but as soon as I have some time this is the plan I have in mind

-play through the amp s pure sine wave at different frequencies and amplitudes , and hopefully been able to make the amp "fizz" loud enough to capture it using a mic (this is the part I'm less confident with as I can hardly hear it)
-capture the output with a mic and try to find out wich harmonics are "fabricated" by the amp (easy to detect with the Twin amp emulation as it does not have any harmonics with minimal gain, so any harmonic in this case would be suspect)
-identify which harmonic(s) is(are) creating the fizz. My best guess so far are the octave and 5th harmonics
-try to find an effect that will create this (these) harmonics and try to dephase it from the dry signal from 180 degrees, adjust the effect level until the fizz is cancelled, I expect to use VERY low levels (otherwise the clean sound will not be clean anymore...). Some effects to try could be Pitch Shift, Phaser, Chorus, Delay.
Worst case if no effects work we could try a cheap equalizer on the efects loop (Behringer are under 25$ i think) to clamp down the problematic frequency and limit the resonance on the power amp.

In theory, this should clean up the sound at least in part.

I anybody wants to try this with a badly fizzing amp it would help as mine is almost indetectable


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:19 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:08 am
Posts: 824
Hi all,

I finally got back to my amp and tried a quick experiment that eliminated the incredibly subtle fizz I was able to hear. It would be great if anybody with a more audible fizz problem could give it a try.

-Dial the basic twin preset, no changes to the preset required
-add the mod called Sine Chorus and change the following
--Phase = min (1)
--Rate = minimum (0.08Hz)
--leave all the others as defaults
-give it a try

I'm not saying this will totally correct the issue is just that I can't hear it anymore in my case.
Given the ridiculously low frequency used for the Chorus, it really does not change the tone (that I can notice), particularly because the effect is placed after the preamp by default. The only thing is that it will sound louder as you are increasing the output level of the signal just before the power amp.
Please give it a quick try and report back to see if we are on the right track or not.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:00 pm
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Roadie
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Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:31 am
Posts: 226
jedi2b wrote:
Hi all,

I finally got back to my amp and tried a quick experiment that eliminated the incredibly subtle fizz I was able to hear. It would be great if anybody with a more audible fizz problem could give it a try.

-Dial the basic twin preset, no changes to the preset required
-add the mod called Sine Chorus and change the following
--Phase = min (1)
--Rate = minimum (0.08Hz)
--leave all the others as defaults
-give it a try

I'm not saying this will totally correct the issue is just that I can't hear it anymore in my case.
Given the ridiculously low frequency used for the Chorus, it really does not change the tone (that I can notice), particularly because the effect is placed after the preamp by default. The only thing is that it will sound louder as you are increasing the output level of the signal just before the power amp.
Please give it a quick try and report back to see if we are on the right track or not.


I tried it. It did not change my fizz. I do appreciate your efforts though. It's a helluva lot more than Fender appears to be doing.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:25 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:36 pm
Posts: 182
Fender has done what they need to do to know what the problem is. And they know what the problem and its solution is. And they've decided not to do anything about it for now. And they've published lawyer-vetted statements to that effect.

cormorant wrote:

I tried it. It did not change my fizz. I do appreciate your efforts though. It's a helluva lot more than Fender appears to be doing.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:18 am
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Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
wow, I wonder where "the expert" gets all that inside information! :shock: So cool to have a real insider here on the forum! I bet he knows inside info about Roswell and the 9/11 conspiracy too....

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