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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:40 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
+ 1/2

I'd just revise that one sentence a little. Remove bold and insert:
But I will certainly continue to respond when the same mostly 2 cheerleaders attempt to explain that it's only a minor issue and its only potentially serious for a very small percentage of musicians playing some very specific styles and settings.


@Scorpaeon

IMO you're one of the guys that brucefulton is referring to.

As to ... "very small percentage"
As to ... "very specific styles and settings"

You seem to have all the facts ... you seem to have it all nailed down ... enlighten us. What is the percentage ... what are the specific styles and settings?

You act like you're the guardian of objectivity when all you really are is a guy with an opinion ... just like me and the rest of us.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:31 pm
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Why does the reviews of the Mustang-III on the Guitar Center site (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Fender-Must ... 1704825.gc) do not mention anything about a 'fizz?'

In the New York Times over the weekend there was a piece about book publishers buying favorable reviews so that their books looks good in the ratings... it would not surprise me a bit if other manufactures did the same... recently I was looking at some items on the Sears webpage and they're a lot of particularly good reviews and no negatives... a lot of the reviews were very generation in their working like "What a great product!" sounds like Sears paid for a bunch of good reviews!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:39 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
....2 or 3 cheerleaders who refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem and feel obligated to return here time after time to defend Fender's honor. ....2 cheerleaders attempt to minimize what for many people is a serious problem for musicians playing some styles and settings.


Examples? Can't say I've seen the same, just wondering where you're getting that from...

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:59 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
....2 or 3 cheerleaders who refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem and feel obligated to return here time after time to defend Fender's honor. ....2 cheerleaders attempt to minimize what for many people is a serious problem for musicians playing some styles and settings.


Examples? Can't say I've seen the same, just wondering where you're getting that from...

https://www.google.com/search?q=strings ... =firefox-a


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:16 pm
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OK I'll do the work here, no problem. Here are all 23 comments I've made in this thread, in order:
strings10927 wrote:
Folks, it sure looks like the problem 'fizzed' with the release of firmware v1.9.

Posts to this thread:

APR2012 2

MAR2012 17

FEB2012 21

JAN2012 189

DEC2011 120

strings10927 wrote:
cormorant wrote:
Firmware v1.9 has no affect on the fizz.


I disagree:

RCB-CA-USA wrote:
- Had fizz. The 1.9 update, high quality cables, hum debugger, and di-box fixed fizz


Do you still have a Mustang III cormorant?

strings10927 wrote:
how did you apply the v1.9 update (there's more than one way)?

strings10927 wrote:
if you're not hearing it when clean, it's not fizz. Try playing with the settings for a while, it takes some time to get the hang of the interface.

strings10927 wrote:
Lucky, can you humor me with a little experiment if you haven't already returned the amp?

I assume you're running MS Windows? If so, please try downloading the firmware from this link ==> http://support.fender.com/software/fend ... g3_1.9.upd

And re-apply the firmware using the FUSE interface ... you will have to choose to manually select the file instead of taking the "bundled" option.

After updating, please try the same patch and settings and let us know if it sounds any different? Even if you already applied the same exact update ....

strings10927 wrote:
Lucky-13 wrote:
Still the same fizzy noise in the fading clean notes. I'm sorry.


No, I'm sorry :(

jwoertz wrote:
Turn it to the "BASIC" settings patch in the 90's. Choose a clean amp with no effects.


Lucky or jwoertz, what preset number was this?

Is it:

Preset #98 , Basic 90s Stack
American90s

Check out the list of presets that use the American90s amp model:

USA Death Metal
Europa
Swedish Metal
New School Shred
Far Beyond Driven
MSG lead
Puppet Master
Down Laid
American90sChorus
Basic 90s Stack

This might not be the best amp model to test a clean sound with. : /

strings10927 wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
Call this the Squire at $300 and we'll be fine. Call it a Fender and fail to live up to the Fender traditional of excellence and you see why this thread lasts for 70+ pages.


maybe they were giving their customers a little too much credit by thinking you'd see a $300 price tag and not expect the greatest thing since sliced bread? :roll:

The Porsche 914 (my dad had one):

strings10927 wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
My experience with the Mustang III and problems other companies have had with integrated amp modeling convinces me that the mustang line, and similar lines from other companies, is a really bad strategy except for garage band wannabes and students who really need to stretch a buck. I see very few of these in the hands of professionals . . . .


Wow. I find that very insulting. I am not a "garage band wannabe" or a student, I'm a working professional, and I deserve a little respect for what I'm capable of playing, not what I'm plugged into.

strings10927 wrote:
calminchaos wrote:
I cracked open my Mustang III out of curiosity. The digital preamp is a thing of beauty. However, the power section is lacking. As a result, .....the fizz after clean notes.


How complicated would it be to bypass the built-in power supply and hook it up to another just to test the theory? We know it's not the speaker, cuz those can and have been swapped without any change.

strings10927 wrote:
to me that's not the same as taking the actual output that's going to the power amp and rerouting that to a different power amp. Is there cabling in between the preamp section and the power amp?

What you did was a clever workaround using the headphone out. Nice job!

strings10927 wrote:
ctguy1955 wrote:
....my Fizztang IV ....all of the
same things the fizztang did.


Oh wait, fizztang .... FIZZ tang, like MUStang :lol: I see what you did there, woo hoo! I've seen it before, but for some reason it's funny every single time! woooo!!!

happy to report mine still sounds great, no sign of any 'artifacts' so far so good, picked it up new in the beginning of March 2012.

strings10927 wrote:
pathtaker wrote:
I am curious to know, with all the hoopla that was made on this board about this fizz issue, has anyone tried Vinze's fix? Has it been confirmed or dissproved?


The majority of people who claim to have an issue do not seem to be interested in troubleshooting. You can't tell them anything they don't already know. :roll:

strings10927 wrote:
well, at least you were on the right forum :roll: :lol:

strings10927 wrote:
FWIW:

1. This has been done (and I can't imagine it's not somewhere in this thread). The effects loop is clean - no fizz there.

2. A power amp is easily fixable ... on a serviceable guitar amp. The Fender Mustang III is literally glued together and not designed for replacing parts. It's a disposable amp, just like cell phones are disposable phones.

3. Maybe YOU can take one to an engineer. My MIII does not fizz, so it can't be me.

strings10927 wrote:
thompal wrote:
Meh, I don't really read that letter to say that they are "blaming" anyone. How I read it is they are saying that while most people think it sounds good, if you listen carefully enough, you may find sonic evidence that it's digital, and is not perfect.

+1

strings10927 wrote:
I don't see how re-posting this year old audio sample relates to Fender's statement and whether or not The Fender Tech Support Lab was trying to 'blame discerning listeners'. But thank you for that blast from the past. :mrgreen:

strings10927 wrote:
Vinze wrote:
Do pro musicians even use these ones, lol?


What is your definition of a 'pro' musician?

strings10927 wrote:
scott-uk wrote:
I'm increasingly thinking that the 'buzz' from my amp is in fact the 'fizz' problem


Plug it into an Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) and see if you still hear anything. That should pretty much rule out any buzz coming through your electric.

strings10927 wrote:
did you try plugging into a UPS scott-uk?

strings10927 wrote:
thompal wrote:
Umm, that's not a scope trace, and the signal isn't a sine wave. Other than that, it's perfect!

Part of the problem here is some of the 'experts' don't have any idea what they are talking about. I stopped banging my head up against this particular brick wall after a while. :roll:

strings10927 wrote:
KenB5 wrote:
... is it the fault of a company that sells the amp based on advertising that it replicates the clean tones the company is famous for (listen to the sound files used in their advertising)


Are you implying the sound files used in their advertising weren't created using a Fender Mustang amplifier?

strings10927 wrote:
Scorpaeon pretty much sums it up perfectly, not worth anyone's time to argue with the peanut gallery

strings10927 wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
....2 or 3 cheerleaders who refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem and feel obligated to return here time after time to defend Fender's honor. ....2 cheerleaders attempt to minimize what for many people is a serious problem for musicians playing some styles and settings.


Examples? Can't say I've seen the same, just wondering where you're getting that from...

Can you please point out where I:
1. Refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem
2. Attempt to minimize what for many people is a serious problem for musicians playing some styles and settings

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Last edited by strings10927 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:57 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
OK I'll do the work here, no problem. Here are all 23 comments I've made in this thread, in order:


Well, yeah. What I said.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:04 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
Can you please point out where I:
1. Refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem
2. Attempt to minimize what for many people is a serious problem for musicians playing some styles and settings


:?:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:12 am
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There are many intelligent people posting eloquent, well-intentioned, informative comments, opinions and information in this topic. These same people show their good natures and "forum community" spirit in other topics too with helpful posts/replies across the whole forum. I have great respect for the knowledge that many people kindly share here.

However, personally, I find it unfortunate and a little saddening that all these good intentions keep turning to bickering in this topic, and detract from the issue being discussed. There are many valid and different opinions here; people should just respect that others have different views, based on different real experiences with these amps. No-one should think they're being disagreed with just because a different view is expressed. Conversely, no-one should express their view with the intent of dismissing another's view.

I'm not trying to give a "holier-than-thou" lecture. I just think we have to accept that all the positions from perfect-and-fizz-free to so-fizzy-it's-unplayable are valid for someone, somewhere. Obviously each person will be polarised by where their own personal experience is on this scale and will post based on that - solely, I hope, in the spirit of giving the most helpful information they can.

It's ironic that people who've posted here suggesting detailed electronic diagnosis of problem amps to try and find a solution (and their willingness/desire to do so), don't seem able to find themselves a fizzy amp; whereas those with fizzy amps don't have the technical knowledge to do that diagnosis themselves. I can't help thinking, rather than all the banter back and forth, maybe a fizzy-amp-but-don't-know-electronics person could hook-up with a competent-electronics-but can't-find-a-fizzy-amp person and together they might be able to solve this? (at least confirm the cause/reasons and end the speculation, if not actually be able to fix it)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:59 am
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scott-uk wrote:
maybe a fizzy-amp-but-don't-know-electronics person could hook-up with a competent-electronics-but can't-find-a-fizzy-amp person and together they might be able to solve this?
Rockcat suggested something like this a few months ago. No go, so far, it seems.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:28 am
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As far as I'm concerned, the issue is not whether the fizz exists, or what causes it, or how to fix it. The issue is Fender's response to the whole matter. Fender has already acknowledged that the fizz exists and they've already acknowledged that it's very bothersome to some users. So why doesn't Fender man up and refund the purchase price under the warranty to those users who find the amp unusable because of the fizz? It's clearly a small number of users who are unhappy with the amp.

Instead, Fender's attitude is: too bad, this is what digital amps do, and you're stuck with it. Geez, for about $1,000 in refunds, all the complaining on this forum would disappear. How stupid is that?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:13 am
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I hope I don't come off as tying to speak for Fender... I only defend the the Mustang III because that's the amp I have and absolutely LOVE it.

KenB5 wrote:
@Scorpaeon

IMO you're one of the guys that brucefulton is referring to.

As to ... "very small percentage"
As to ... "very specific styles and settings"

You seem to have all the facts ... you seem to have it all nailed down ... enlighten us. What is the percentage ... what are the specific styles and settings?

You act like you're the guardian of objectivity when all you really are is a guy with an opinion ... just like me and the rest of us.

KenB

Yeah, there's no question, I'm one of the guys brucefulton is is referring to.

And yes, I know I don't have any quantitative data. So where do I get my statistics? The same place brucefulton got his when he claimed "many people" and "serious problem"".

Yes they are opinions. Not the existence of fizz, that's a fact. I'm talking about how big of a problem it actually is.

When people come here and read "many people" and "serious problem" it sounds just as authoritative as anything I've ever written and it scares people off. I'm accused of minimizing the problem, well I accuse you of trumping up the problem. That has always been my only point of contention. Every time someone comes in here and is on the fence about a Mustang soley because of fizz, they need to know that, yeah maybe they might have an issue, but there is really not much reason to be scared because the odds are in their favor that it will not be a problem

Unfortunately I can not enlighten you with percentages or statistics because they do not exist. I would LOVE it if if they did because I'm confident they would support my argument. But I will enlighten you with how I came up with my opinion.

Who is interested in modeling amps?
People who want a variety of tones, so they can play a variety of music.
People who are on a budget.
People who want a lot of features in an all in one package.
People who aren't sticklers for "real" tube tone.

The point: A modeling amp in general appeals to people who are willing to compromise on some features to get others. My opinion is that if you have decided to buy a modeling amp, you are taking a risk that you will find attributes of the amp, whatever brand it may be, that you dislike. You are taking a risk that you will find at least one attribute that you hate. Some people will find said attribute and be pissed off because it wasn't as expected. Its unfortunate for you to be that person. In my opinion the Mustang is well worth the risk.

But, hey its not just my opinion...
77 reviews, 4.5 stars
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifie ... -combo-amp

26 reviews, 4.5 stars
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mustang3

48 reviews, 5 stars
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Fender-Must ... 1704825.gc

26 reviews, 4.5 stars
http://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN2300030

25 reviews, 4 stars
http://www.amazon.com/Fender-Mustang-El ... ustang+iii

12 reviews, 5 stars
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i- ... 0-000-LIST

13 reviews, 9.1 out of 10, with 93 votes for overall 8.6
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/ ... index.html

Those ratings are averages, but please do your own search, I couldn't find an average rating under 4 stars. If you read through those reviews you will hear mention of fizz. But why are they mostly positive? Why do a lot of those online retailers have "Top Seller" next to the amp? One could conclude that the "problem" only effects a "few" people and that "most" people are unaffected or happy with the amp.

Again... I'm only arguing about the the seriousness of the problem and number of people that find it to be a problem.

Here are the results of a youtube search for "fender mustang III". About 25 or so hits on the first page... only 1 has anything to do with fizz.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... ah7QeXwKDo


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:59 pm
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I think it is my turn to add +1 :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:03 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
And yes, I know I don't have any quantitative data. So where do I get my statistics? The same place brucefulton got his when he claimed "many people" and "serious problem"".

When people come here and read "many people" and "serious problem" it sounds just as authoritative as anything I've ever written and it scares people off. I'm accused of minimizing the problem, well I accuse you of trumping up the problem.


@Scorpaeon

I have never said "many people" or "serious problem". In fact ... as per the quote above ... you yourself attributed that to brucefulton ... so you're accusing the wrong guy.

As to "trumping up the problem" ... check out the following ... nothing trumped up (aka over blown or over stated) there ... it's just my take on the Mustang based on posts in this forum and my own ownership. If you're expecting me to say I fully like the Mustang ... or love/defend Fender for the way they've handled this ... that just ain't gonna happen.

KenB5 wrote:
@juaaslo

Re the MIII/IV/V ... aka those that are claimed to fizz ...

As someone who generally likes the Mustang but recommends that players who value their clean tones stay away ... this is my opinion:

They don't all fizz ... some do ... some don't. There is no guarantee either way.

For those that fizz ... some do it from the beginning ... some do it days/weeks/months later. There is no set rule.

For those that fizz ... on some the fizz is faint ... on some it's very obvious ... on some it's in-between. There is no set rule.

For those that fizz ... it's best heard on clean settings, lower notes and when played slowly. Most folk say you hear it most upon note decay. But that is not always the case. In some Mustangs it can be heard on clean settings, all notes (not just low notes) and as soon as the note is picked.

For those that fizz ... the faster you play or the dirtier your tone the more fizz will be masked. Folk who play like that may never hear it.

For those that fizz ... there is no fix to date ... not from Fender ... not from users.

For those that fizz ... Fender may not allow you to trade out or cover it under warranty service. Early on in the problem Fender did ... but most recent reports indicate Fender will do nothing. If that is the case ... you are out your money and are stuck with an amp you may not like and may not want to live with.

Aside from the fizz issue ... the Mustang is a nifty amp ... FUSE allows it to do a lot.

If you like the features offered by FUSE ... or play dirty ... or shred ... or could care less about clean tones ... I don't see much to worry about if you purchase a Mustang.

If you value clean tones ... or if you are serious about your cleans ... regardless of other features offered by the amp ... I'd stay away from the Mustang. Although the presence and degree of fizz is uncertain ... and you may luck out and get one that will never fizz ... IMO if it fizzes and you are this category of player ... you may end up not liking the amp and Fender may not stand behind their warranty ... and who needs that kind of hassle.

KenB


KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:52 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
@Scorpaeon

I have never said "many people" or "serious problem". In fact ... as per the quote above ... you yourself attributed that to brucefulton ... so you're accusing the wrong guy.


KenB5 wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
Hmm, the bulk of the "defense" of fizzing mustangs comes from the same 2 or 3 cheerleaders who refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem and feel obligated to return here time after time to defend Fender's honor. I haven't posted anything except in response to new questions for several months. But I will certainly continue to respond when the same mostly 2 cheerleaders attempt to minimize what for many people is a serious problem for musicians playing some styles and settings. Those people should fully understand that the fizz can vary from amp to amp from minimal to severe, can be intolerable on some, may appear well after any normal retail return period, and that Fender won't replace or repair a fizzing amp on warranty. You can cheerlead all you want and it doesn't change those facts. Yes, there are many satisfied customers. But potential customers need to know that if they become unsatisfied due to this issue, Fender won't fix it.


+1

Ditto ... exactly ...

KenB

Sooooo, do you agree or not agree with what he said, Ditto... exactly... ?

KenB5 wrote:
As to "trumping up the problem" ... check out the following ... nothing trumped up (aka over blown or over stated) there ... it's just my take on the Mustang based on posts in this forum and my own ownership. If you're expecting me to say I fully like the Mustang ... or love/defend Fender for the way they've handled this ... that just ain't gonna happen.
KenB

That's fine, your take is your take and my take is my take. I don't expect you to say or not say anything. Not even sure where that's coming from.

Following is not directed @KenB5, just speaking in general...

I just want people to know:
Scorpaeon wrote:
Every time someone comes in here and is on the fence about a Mustang soley because of fizz, they need to know that, yeah maybe they might have an issue, but there is really not much reason to be scared because the odds are in their favor that it will not be a problem


Some of the bugs and lack of functionality in FUSE is a bigger problem than fizz.

The cheap little plastic input jacks that keep breaking off is a bigger problem than fizz.

Other than that, I really can't think of anything else I don't like about the amp. The fizz is barely a minor blip on the radar.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:57 am
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Scorpaeon wrote:
Sooooo, do you agree or not agree with what he said, Ditto... exactly... ?


Saying +1, Ditto or exactly in response to someones post should not be taken as inheriting his exact words as if I myself had said them ... I don't even hold you to that standard. Such things are generally understood to be more of a response to the tone of the statement rather than 100% agreement with the specific statement as if the responder said it themselves.

Scorpaeon wrote:
The cheap little plastic input jacks that keep breaking off is a bigger problem than fizz.


Well ... IMO a busted jack is an inconvenience ... but for those bothered by fizz IMO fizz is a catastrophe.

KenB


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