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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:01 am
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thompal wrote:
I just wish someone who has the problem would put up a scope trace of the output with a sine-wave on the input. We would at least see on the waveform where the noise is, and get an idea of what's causing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6H3gFU6e7o


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:08 am
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brucefulton wrote:
thompal wrote:
I just wish someone who has the problem would put up a scope trace of the output with a sine-wave on the input. We would at least see on the waveform where the noise is, and get an idea of what's causing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6H3gFU6e7o



Umm, that's not a scope trace, and the signal isn't a sine wave. Other than that, it's perfect!

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:29 am
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thompal wrote:
Umm, that's not a scope trace, and the signal isn't a sine wave. Other than that, it's perfect!

Part of the problem here is some of the 'experts' don't have any idea what they are talking about. I stopped banging my head up against this particular brick wall after a while. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:00 am
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thompal wrote:

Umm, that's not a scope trace, and the signal isn't a sine wave. Other than that, it's perfect!

It's what's available.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:32 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
thompal wrote:

Umm, that's not a scope trace, and the signal isn't a sine wave. Other than that, it's perfect!

It's what's available.

You can see where on the waveform the problem occurs. Fender claims to know, in conversations with those who have had the problem (including me), that they know where the problem is. They just won't tell, and they just won't fix it, and they won't honor warranty claims.

It's simply not possible to listen to this output trace, and the samples previously posted, and pretend that there is no problem. If it doesn't bother you, so be it. It's bothered enough people that this thread is a year old and 75 pages deep. And there is no indication it has been fixed. What has happened is that anyone affected has long since ditched their amps, and whoever is left is not playing the problem settings -- which basically is any clean tone with low gain.

I'm not sure why you care, since you don't seem to be bothered by the problem. Otherwise, you could take your amp and perform whatever tests you want on it. My badly fizzing mustang III is long. The taste in my mouth from the experience isn't.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:24 am
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brucefulton wrote:
And there is no indication it has been fixed.


I'm pretty sure that the power amp in these Mustangs is an integrated circuit chip soldered to a printed circuit board. I was looking online at the different types, and they all have a different number of terminal pins, so it's not just a matter of finding one that doesn't create fizz and dropping it in. It probably means the whole printed circuit board has to be re-designed and re-manufactured. And even then, I don't know if the board drops into a slot like in a computer, or is hard-wired to the rest of the amp which would require a major dis-assembly job.

Fender still should offer a refund to people who can't tolerate the fizz. This is what's losing them goodwill, not the fizz itself. It's a total disrespect of the customer, and a completely misguided public relations policy.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:43 am
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cormorant wrote:
Fender still should offer a refund to people who can't tolerate the fizz. This is what's losing them goodwill, not the fizz itself. It's a total disrespect of the customer, and a completely misguided public relations policy.


Yeah ... it's something I never expected from Fender ...

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:21 am
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brucefulton wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
thompal wrote:

Umm, that's not a scope trace, and the signal isn't a sine wave. Other than that, it's perfect!

It's what's available.

You can see where on the waveform the problem occurs. Fender claims to know, in conversations with those who have had the problem (including me), that they know where the problem is. They just won't tell, and they just won't fix it, and they won't honor warranty claims.

It's simply not possible to listen to this output trace, and the samples previously posted, and pretend that there is no problem. If it doesn't bother you, so be it. It's bothered enough people that this thread is a year old and 75 pages deep. And there is no indication it has been fixed. What has happened is that anyone affected has long since ditched their amps, and whoever is left is not playing the problem settings -- which basically is any clean tone with low gain.

I'm not sure why you care, since you don't seem to be bothered by the problem. Otherwise, you could take your amp and perform whatever tests you want on it. My badly fizzing mustang III is long. The taste in my mouth from the experience isn't.


I enjoy problems like this. I'm not pretending that it doesn't exist. I'm merely amazed that there are so many people who seem to think that this is the most important issue of the day, yet not one of them will go to any trouble to figure out the problem. I would think that if someone was so infuriated by a problem, they would take 5 minutes of their time to do some basic Electronics 101 level troubleshooting, and post the results, so that people could begin to actually determine a cause. I guess everyone thinks it's more fun to engage in wild speculation. Posting a capture of an RTA with a guitar signal as input is sensationalist, but not very useful. Seeing what the spectrum looks like doesn't show anything. A shot of a sine waveform would show where on the wave the problem is, and COULD give a clue about the cause. We COULD roll up our sleeves and study the problem.

I guess it's more fun to scream and shout about how dreadful the problem is.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:19 am
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Well, most people who buy Mustangs are students, hobbiests, and amateur musicians (not electricians) who are looking for the most bang for their buck. When you buy a Mustang your getting a compromise between quality and cost. I don't believe Fender (even with their liberal marketing tactics) has ever tried to imply that these are anything but a great value for the money. But alas, the amps are not perfect. So...

The reason this "cause" has not developed past a lengthy internet forum is because at the end of the day, when you take it all in for what its worth, the problem is really not that big a deal. It's just not that worth it.

brucefulton wrote:
It's simply not possible to listen to this output trace, and the samples previously posted, and pretend that there is no problem. If it doesn't bother you, so be it. It's bothered enough people that this thread is a year old and 75 pages deep. And there is no indication it has been fixed. What has happened is that anyone affected has long since ditched their amps, and whoever is left is not playing the problem settings -- which basically is any clean tone with low gain.

I would have no reservations about trading in my MIII for something comparable but better. Still waiting for it to come along though. But I believe its more accurate to say that the vast majority of fizzy Mustang owners are playing clean tones with low gain anytime they want with satisfying results. (not just one note fizz tests). Hence the ongoing popularity of the amps, inspite of this ongoing thread. It really would suck if I found my clean settings unplayable, but I really believe those are isolated to a few extreme cases and some discerning listeners. No offense intended.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:16 am
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thompal wrote:
I enjoy problems like this. I'm not pretending that it doesn't exist. I'm merely amazed that there are so many people who seem to think that this is the most important issue of the day, yet not one of them will go to any trouble to figure out the problem. I would think that if someone was so infuriated by a problem, they would take 5 minutes of their time to do some basic Electronics 101 level troubleshooting, and post the results, so that people could begin to actually determine a cause. I guess everyone thinks it's more fun to engage in wild speculation. Posting a capture of an RTA with a guitar signal as input is sensationalist, but not very useful. Seeing what the spectrum looks like doesn't show anything. A shot of a sine waveform would show where on the wave the problem is, and COULD give a clue about the cause. We COULD roll up our sleeves and study the problem.

I guess it's more fun to scream and shout about how dreadful the problem is.

I suspect like most others with fizz, I don't have an oscilloscope, Fender wouldn't take it back to look at it or tell me what the problem is, and the authorized repair shop, which did have a scope I suspect wouldn't take a look without authorization and troubleshooting support from Fender, which was not forthcoming. If you want to roll up your sleeves, be my guest. I did what most others did -- dump it at a loss and got something else. That's more trouble than I should have to have gone to. Fender knows what the problem is and they're not saying. The repair shop doesn't touch these independently because there's nothing to fix. My understanding is that these are DNS (do not service) if they ever go back on warranty.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:35 pm
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thompal wrote:
I enjoy problems like this. I'm not pretending that it doesn't exist. I'm merely amazed that there are so many people who seem to think that this is the most important issue of the day, yet not one of them will go to any trouble to figure out the problem. I would think that if someone was so infuriated by a problem, they would take 5 minutes of their time to do some basic Electronics 101 level troubleshooting, and post the results, so that people could begin to actually determine a cause. I guess everyone thinks it's more fun to engage in wild speculation. Posting a capture of an RTA with a guitar signal as input is sensationalist, but not very useful. Seeing what the spectrum looks like doesn't show anything. A shot of a sine waveform would show where on the wave the problem is, and COULD give a clue about the cause. We COULD roll up our sleeves and study the problem.

I guess it's more fun to scream and shout about how dreadful the problem is.


@thompal

How about you suggest instead ... that FENDER GET OFF THEIR *** AND FIGURE IT OUT THEMSELVES.

We're players for the most part ... not technicians schooled in digital electronics, amp design etc. Are YOU qualified to do this kind of work? If so ... why don't you take apart your Mustang and do it ... or get hold of someone else's fizzy Mustang and do it?

I guess it's funner for guys like you to belittle owners of fizzy Mustangs that don't have the skills required to do what you suggest and have been left at the alter by Fender ... and therefore have no other options.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:30 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
thompal wrote:
I enjoy problems like this. I'm not pretending that it doesn't exist. I'm merely amazed that there are so many people who seem to think that this is the most important issue of the day, yet not one of them will go to any trouble to figure out the problem. I would think that if someone was so infuriated by a problem, they would take 5 minutes of their time to do some basic Electronics 101 level troubleshooting, and post the results, so that people could begin to actually determine a cause. I guess everyone thinks it's more fun to engage in wild speculation. Posting a capture of an RTA with a guitar signal as input is sensationalist, but not very useful. Seeing what the spectrum looks like doesn't show anything. A shot of a sine waveform would show where on the wave the problem is, and COULD give a clue about the cause. We COULD roll up our sleeves and study the problem.

I guess it's more fun to scream and shout about how dreadful the problem is.

I suspect like most others with fizz, I don't have an oscilloscope, Fender wouldn't take it back to look at it or tell me what the problem is, and the authorized repair shop, which did have a scope I suspect wouldn't take a look without authorization and troubleshooting support from Fender, which was not forthcoming. If you want to roll up your sleeves, be my guest. I did what most others did -- dump it at a loss and got something else. That's more trouble than I should have to have gone to. Fender knows what the problem is and they're not saying. The repair shop doesn't touch these independently because there's nothing to fix. My understanding is that these are DNS (do not service) if they ever go back on warranty.


The reason you can't get an authorized warranty center to do this is because their job is "fix or replace." It's not to diagnose potential design flaws. And they can't MOD an amp under warranty. It's my gut feeling that it's in the output section or in the power supply.
I've actually gone to a few stores looking for one with The Fizz so I could have a look. None of them did it. I told one store guy that I was really wanting to buy one that was defective and made a funny noise. He was little help after that. Needless to say, every one I've tried so far has been Fizz-Free.

If your local repair places are like the ones here, they all handle multiple brands, and at any given time have upwards of 100 Marshall, Peavey, Orange, Line 6, Vox, and Fender amps all sitting around waiting to be looked at or waiting for parts. The guys there simply don't have time to be curious and do a couple of hours worth of digging just for fun.

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1983 (?) Musicmaster
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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:33 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
thompal wrote:
I enjoy problems like this. I'm not pretending that it doesn't exist. I'm merely amazed that there are so many people who seem to think that this is the most important issue of the day, yet not one of them will go to any trouble to figure out the problem. I would think that if someone was so infuriated by a problem, they would take 5 minutes of their time to do some basic Electronics 101 level troubleshooting, and post the results, so that people could begin to actually determine a cause. I guess everyone thinks it's more fun to engage in wild speculation. Posting a capture of an RTA with a guitar signal as input is sensationalist, but not very useful. Seeing what the spectrum looks like doesn't show anything. A shot of a sine waveform would show where on the wave the problem is, and COULD give a clue about the cause. We COULD roll up our sleeves and study the problem.

I guess it's more fun to scream and shout about how dreadful the problem is.


@thompal

How about you suggest instead ... that FENDER GET OFF THEIR *** AND FIGURE IT OUT THEMSELVES.

We're players for the most part ... not technicians schooled in digital electronics, amp design etc. Are YOU qualified to do this kind of work? If so ... why don't you take apart your Mustang and do it ... or get hold of someone else's fizzy Mustang and do it?

I guess it's funner for guys like you to belittle owners of fizzy Mustangs that don't have the skills required to do what you suggest and have been left at the alter by Fender ... and therefore have no other options.

KenB



Well, FYI, I've been trying to find one that Fizzes so I COULD get it and start seeing what I could find out.

I might suggest that it's more fun for some people to throw rotten fruit at Fender than take a little initiative and look into the problem themselves.

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1963 Princeton
1965 Twin Reverb
1968 Bandmaster
1970 Champ
1983 (?) Musicmaster
2012 Mustang III
West Grande (x2)
Acoustic G60-T
Marshall JTM 60


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:01 pm
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thompal wrote:
I might suggest that it's more fun for some people to throw rotten fruit at Fender than take a little initiative and look into the problem themselves.


This attitude really ticks me off.

Fender designed, built, marketed and sold the thing ... who the heck else do you think dissatisfied customers should point fingers at?

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:07 pm
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thompal wrote:
Well, FYI, I've been trying to find one that Fizzes so I COULD get it and start seeing what I could find out.

I might suggest that it's more fun for some people to throw rotten fruit at Fender than take a little initiative and look into the problem themselves.

You simply must be joking. No, I guess you're not. Nothing about my experience with Fender has been fun. What do you suggest we do? Pay an independent electronic engineer more than the amp costs to diagnose what Fender has clearly stated they already know? Design a new IC?

I suspect you haven't actually looked at the internal board. It's nothing but custom proprietary ICs with unlabeled pinouts and a small handful of discrete components. Look at it. I don't think you ever have. If you had, you would recognize the futility of your quest. There is nothing here to fix.

So you have a sine wave trace. What do you propose to fix or replace it with? You would have no choice but to ask fender to send you a replacement IC, hope it doesn't fizz, and hope you can R&R the existing chip. And then so what? You haven't fixed the problem because you don't have the proprietary IC design and don't have a design lab and chip fab to fix it.

Give me a break.


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