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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:41 am
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Hi,

this my first post here, I own a MI and have been closely following this thread as the MIII sounds like a great gigging solution for my cover band. I have a question based on some of what I've read here, if I have this correct,
1) There is no Fizz when using the headphone socket
2) There is no Fizz when using an external modeler into the FX return/power amp in

If that's the case could you run a cable from the headphone out to the FX return?

Thanks,
-Lev


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:01 pm
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To those who are still concerned that the Fizz is a big issue - it's not.

You can find limitations or undesirable noise on any amp, digital or analog. You take the pros and cons and decide if its the right amp for you. And just about all digital amps that I know of produce digital artifacts under certain circumstances.

"But Mustangs are Fender amps and fender cleans are supposed to be so clean and sparkly, whaaaa!"

I get it, but it's still a digital amp and its still limited by the technology in it (versus the cost of trying to improve it). But oh, BTW, it STILL does a better job with the Fender models than any of the competition. If you have the time and patience, check back through this thread and you will see that it is just t a small hand full of people who have consistently argued that the fizz is cause for major concern. And a lot of bandwagoners jumping in going "OMG, Fender, wtf?!?".

Now to be fair, on the other side, its also the same hand full of fanboys (that would be me :mrgreen: ) chiming in to say its no big deal. But there are far more examples of people using these amps, gigging with these amps, recording with these amps with GREAT results - clean Fender models included - then there are of fizz riddled undesirable examples.

It's been said more than a few times in this thread, by myself also, that if you want this amp primarily to play clean jazz or acoustic type sounds then maybe, there might be a small chance that the fizz will be an issue. If that puts you off then sure, go ahead and see what else is out there. But for the guitar player who wants versatility, great tone, and as close to natural feel as a modeler ever came for less than $300 all in one box, please let me know if you find something better elsewhere!

As far as trying to isolate the fizz and trying to fix it or come up with some kind of work around - more power to ya, but I think its a lot of effort for an almost non-existent issue for the majority of people. Might as well just wait for the next generation to come out and upgrade. You'll only be out $300, Most people spend that on cell phones every couple of years.

In short, don't be scurd, git you an MIII! They are great amps!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:29 pm
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I will probably go for the Floor and make a "combo" PA system. I will have more capabilities since it has more connectivity options.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:45 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
To those who are still concerned that the Fizz is a big issue - it's not.


My subjective opinion is ... players that are into cleans ... or are passionate/serious about their cleans ... are taking a risk if they buy an MIII or above. No guarantee that you'll get a dud ... and who knows ... you might like the other tones the amp offers ... but IMO folk that are into cleans should be cautious if they are considering this amp.

BTW ... sorry to see that after 14+ months of discussion about this problem ... I'm sorry to see that there seems to have been little to no progress toward a resolution.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:22 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
Scorpaeon wrote:
BTW ... sorry to see that after 14+ months of discussion about this problem ... I'm sorry to see that there seems to have been little to no progress toward a resolution.

KenB


I suspect the only way any progress COULD be made on the problem was if everyone who had the problem contacted someone in the "tech" department at the Fender factory, and every amp which verifiably had the problem was returned to them, so the people at the Fender "lab" could examine them to see what was going on. The number of amps which exhibit the problem seem to be a small minority, and unless the tech guys at Fender can get their hands on them directly, and take measurements, and do tests, it's going to be nearly impossible for come up with a solution.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:44 am
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thompal wrote:
I suspect the only way any progress COULD be made on the problem was if everyone who had the problem contacted someone in the "tech" department at the Fender factory, and every amp which verifiably had the problem was returned to them, so the people at the Fender "lab" could examine them to see what was going on. The number of amps which exhibit the problem seem to be a small minority, and unless the tech guys at Fender can get their hands on them directly, and take measurements, and do tests, it's going to be nearly impossible for come up with a solution.


@thompal

There are many fizz, obnoxious tail end distortion etc. threads going back for well over a year. Fact is what you suggest has essentially been done ... and the results from soup to nuts has been discussed within these threads ... not to mention on other guitar/amp forums.

Many owners of fizzy Mustangs have contacted Fender ... not just tech support ... management as well has been contacted. Many owners of fizzy Mustangs have taken their fizzy Mustangs back to their dealer and to Fender warranty centers. Fender is not ignorant of this problem. They have also acknowledged the problem on this forum. To anyone who is contemplating a purchase ... note who Fender blames the problem on ... "discerning listeners".

Refer to the following:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=59203

"Dear Fender Mustang Community,

We are aware of the various discussions regarding the “fizz” phenomenon, in which some Mustang amp users notice sound that they find undesirable. We researched the issue and found that under certain combined conditions, using certain settings and playing techniques, an artifact can be produced in Mustang III, IV and V amplifiers.

The simple truth is that while we were able to include great tones and many useful features into an extremely affordable box, within the vast array of sounds, some discerning listeners may consider the smallest sonic variable a limitation. Nevertheless, legions of Mustang amp users have proven and agree that the Mustang amplifier series delivers great value, versatility and sound.

As a forward-thinking company of musicians, we always welcome all consumer opinion and insight that helps drive our constant development of innovative new products. Technology moves fast, and so we continue to develop products that offer guitarists newer and better tools to make music.

Best Regards,
The Fender Tech Support Lab"

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:50 am
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KenB5 wrote:
@thompal

There are many fizz, obnoxious tail end distortion etc. threads going back for well over a year. Fact is what you suggest has essentially been done ... and the results from soup to nuts has been discussed within these threads ... not to mention on other guitar/amp forums.

Many owners of fizzy Mustangs have contacted Fender ... not just tech support ... management as well has been contacted. Many owners of fizzy Mustangs have taken their fizzy Mustangs back to their dealer and to Fender warranty centers. Fender is not ignorant of this problem. They have also acknowledged the problem on this forum. To anyone who is contemplating a purchase ... note who Fender blames the problem on ... "discerning listeners".

Refer to the following:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=59203

"Dear Fender Mustang Community,

We are aware of the various discussions regarding the “fizz” phenomenon, in which some Mustang amp users notice sound that they find undesirable. We researched the issue and found that under certain combined conditions, using certain settings and playing techniques, an artifact can be produced in Mustang III, IV and V amplifiers.

The simple truth is that while we were able to include great tones and many useful features into an extremely affordable box, within the vast array of sounds, some discerning listeners may consider the smallest sonic variable a limitation. Nevertheless, legions of Mustang amp users have proven and agree that the Mustang amplifier series delivers great value, versatility and sound.

As a forward-thinking company of musicians, we always welcome all consumer opinion and insight that helps drive our constant development of innovative new products. Technology moves fast, and so we continue to develop products that offer guitarists newer and better tools to make music.

Best Regards,
The Fender Tech Support Lab"

KenB


Meh, I don't really read that letter to say that they are "blaming" anyone. How I read it is they are saying that while most people think it sounds good, if you listen carefully enough, you may find sonic evidence that it's digital, and is not perfect.

And as far as "telling" Fender about the problem, that is quite a different thing than test results, scope traces, and component measurements from an amp that makes the noise.

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1983 (?) Musicmaster
2012 Mustang III
West Grande (x2)
Acoustic G60-T
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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:18 pm
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thompal wrote:
Meh, I don't really read that letter to say that they are "blaming" anyone. How I read it is they are saying that while most people think it sounds good, if you listen carefully enough, you may find sonic evidence that it's digital, and is not perfect.

And as far as "telling" Fender about the problem, that is quite a different thing than test results, scope traces, and component measurements from an amp that makes the noise.


When I had the fizz issue with a MKIII that didn't begin fizzing until after the return period expired, I tried to return it to Fender for warranty through an authorized repair center and they wouldn't take it to look at it. I talked to Fender customer service directly and they said that they know what causes it, but they wouldn't tell me specifically what the issue is, and their position, per the statement released a message above, is that it is considered normal for this amp so they would not do anything under warranty. Apart from complaining, there's not much else for the consumer to do.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:56 pm
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thompal wrote:
Meh, I don't really read that letter to say that they are "blaming" anyone. How I read it is they are saying that while most people think it sounds good, if you listen carefully enough, you may find sonic evidence that it's digital, and is not perfect.

And as far as "telling" Fender about the problem, that is quite a different thing than test results, scope traces, and component measurements from an amp that makes the noise.


Compare the clean tone sound files Fender provides on their site to the sound of a fizzy Mustang. As documented in this thread and others ... if ya have a fizzy Mustang ... ya don't have to listen carefully (with discernment) to hear it ... it's very obvious.

Also as documented in this thread ... scope traces have been provided.

IMO Fender is playing a game of plausible deniability. IMO Fender is well aware of the problem and knows the cause. Look at what we have here ... a 73 page 14 month long thread of complaints about defective Mustang amps ... and growing. Add in the other threads and it's even larger. This is not a problem of owners listening too carefully ... it's a problem of Fender sticking their head in the sand so as to ignore the complaints of their unsatisfied customers, deflect blame, stonewall, plead ignorance and not stand behind their product. IMO it's a clear cut case of Fender selling a defective product and following up complaints with lousy customer service and lousy communication.

IMO Fender deserves every single bit of flack that they get over this problem.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:34 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
thompal wrote:
Meh, I don't really read that letter to say that they are "blaming" anyone. How I read it is they are saying that while most people think it sounds good, if you listen carefully enough, you may find sonic evidence that it's digital, and is not perfect.

And as far as "telling" Fender about the problem, that is quite a different thing than test results, scope traces, and component measurements from an amp that makes the noise.


Compare the clean tone sound files Fender provides on their site to the sound of a fizzy Mustang. As documented in this thread and others ... if ya have a fizzy Mustang ... ya don't have to listen carefully (with discernment) to hear it ... it's very obvious.

Also as documented in this thread ... scope traces have been provided.

IMO Fender is playing a game of plausible deniability. IMO Fender is well aware of the problem and knows the cause. Look at what we have here ... a 73 page 14 month long thread of complaints about defective Mustang amps ... and growing. Add in the other threads and it's even larger. This is not a problem of owners listening too carefully ... it's a problem of Fender sticking their head in the sand so as to ignore the complaints of their unsatisfied customers, deflect blame, stonewall, plead ignorance and not stand behind their product. IMO it's a clear cut case of Fender selling a defective product and following up complaints with lousy customer service and lousy communication.

IMO Fender deserves every single bit of flack that they get over this problem.

KenB


+1


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:33 am
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thompal wrote:
Meh, I don't really read that letter to say that they are "blaming" anyone. How I read it is they are saying that while most people think it sounds good, if you listen carefully enough, you may find sonic evidence that it's digital, and is not perfect.

+1

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:00 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
thompal wrote:
Meh, I don't really read that letter to say that they are "blaming" anyone. How I read it is they are saying that while most people think it sounds good, if you listen carefully enough, you may find sonic evidence that it's digital, and is not perfect.

+1


http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:38 pm
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I don't see how re-posting this year old audio sample relates to Fender's statement and whether or not The Fender Tech Support Lab was trying to 'blame discerning listeners'. But thank you for that blast from the past. :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:48 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
thompal wrote:
Meh, I don't really read that letter to say that they are "blaming" anyone. How I read it is they are saying that while most people think it sounds good, if you listen carefully enough, you may find sonic evidence that it's digital, and is not perfect.

+1

+1

After 14 months and 73 pages of this thread at the top of their own forum, I think its fair to say Fender has managed to NOT alienate customers. MIII's are still selling like hot cakes and get 4.5 star reviews on any retailer web site you care to look up. How can you explain that other than by and large Fender actually lives up to their claims.

"The simple truth is that while we were able to include great tones and many useful features into an extremely affordable box, within the vast array of sounds, some discerning listeners may consider the smallest sonic variable a limitation. Nevertheless, legions of Mustang amp users have proven and agree that the Mustang amplifier series delivers great value, versatility and sound."


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:11 am
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Scorpaeon wrote:
MIII's are still selling like hot cakes and get 4.5 star reviews on any retailer web site you care to look up. How can you explain that other than by and large Fender actually lives up to their claims.


When I purchased my Mustang-III I did not know about any problems with a 'fizz' - I first read about it here after I already bought it. Had I know there was a problem I probably would have bought something else.


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