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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:19 am
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Scorpaeon wrote:
If you could send raw, uncolored signal to the speaker, it would essentially make the amp a monitor. Or going through USB, essentialy a straight up interface. You would get the raw, uncolored tone of the guitar. The purpose would not be to get a good raw tone per se, but just to get a raw tone that you could color with something other than the onboard amp models. (ie, Amplitube, or another stand alone multi-effect pedal)


I guess if you wanted to use the mustang as a monitor at the same time it was being used as a "straight up interface" then you would need it to work as you say. I would think the aux in would be an ok monitor for many applications though.

The problem I see with asking for the mustang to put out sound without "color" is that all amps have a fair amount of color. I guess you're just asking for as "flat" as possible.


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:27 am
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johnjaypl wrote:
It would be useful to have a "flat" model, even if it was only for sending data to the usb port. Then a mustang would be a useful front end for Amplitube.

Just a thought.
John


I think you make a very valid point here with regard to Amplitube.
It seems a bit redundant for Fender to include Amplitube with the purchase of a Mustang amp because you can't really use Amplitube unless you already have an audio interface for your computer or you're willing to just use the crappy little built-in line input. Yes, technically you can use the Mustang as an audio interface for Amplitube but that would mean that the guitar signal would be going through TWO amp simulators. Even if you do have an audio interface to use with Amplitube, why would you need it when the Mustang itself already gives you pretty much the same thing AND you also have the option of miking the amp. Also, consider that Amplitube is a competing product trying replicate the real thing. Don't we already have that in the Mustang? I think that the models/cab sim sound I get via the Mustang's USB port sounds fine. If I need it to be better, I'll mic the amp.

Hot Tip: When recording, use the Mustang's USB connection and mic the amp as well. You can then blend the two sounds to taste at mix down. You can also move the mic back a bit and get more of the room sound and blend that later. Caveat: Your DAW has to support multiple audio interfaces simultaneously. I use Digital Performer 7.2

This leads me to ask... Why did Fender include Amplitube?
I've always wanted to try Amplitube so I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. I just don't think its inclusion makes any sense because of the fact that using the Mustang as a front end isn't really practical. You don't have a choice of using the either Mustang's or Amplitube's models/cab sims... or both in stereo - e.g., Mustang Left, Amplitube Right (wouldn't that be cool?). You can however, Turn off the cab sim on the Mustang amp models, bypass Amplitube's amp models and use its cab sims. I suppose that's one way to look at it.
O.


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:47 am
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Hi Guys,

Thanks for your interesting thoughts/ideas. I will pass a link to the discussion on to our lead hardware engineer for the Fender Mustang project to see what he thinks.

Best Regards,

_________________
Alan Willey
Fender Technology Support Lab
TSL@Fender.com
480.596.7195


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:00 pm
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Thanks, Alan.

It's really nice to see Fender support folks fully involved in these forums. I'm hopeful that your engineers can come up with solutions for these Acoustic/Flat response models we keep talking about.

O.


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:50 am
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johnjaypl wrote:
I guess if you wanted to use the mustang as a monitor at the same time it was being used as a "straight up interface" then you would need it to work as you say. I would think the aux in would be an ok monitor for many applications though.

The problem I see with asking for the mustang to put out sound without "color" is that all amps have a fair amount of color. I guess you're just asking for as "flat" as possible.

The aux in is great for many applications, but I'm thinking more along the lines of plugging an external rig into the amp input or FX loop and being able to play through the amp as a monitor (completely bypassing any and all on-board amp/effects/cab models). Not that I would need to do that a lot, as the Mustang gives me plenty of tonal variety, but it would be another sweet option to have.

And I agree with what your saying, that each amp has its own color. So if this feature ever comes to pass, it would be up to you to accept it for what it is and take or leave it.

I think we are basically in agreement here as far as what we want the amp to do. But idealy, what I would want, is a clean, uncolored signal with the ability to EQ it myself rather than have a predefined "flat" model designed by Fender. Because every guitar and every guitar player is different. Just leave the function of the bass, mid, and treble knobs.


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:14 am
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Hi, Scorpaeon.
Am I missing something? You should be able to do that on the Mustang IV via the effects return shouldn't you?. Plugging in that way does bypass the preamp does it not? The only problem might be if you wanted to alternate between the Mustang's preamp and the external rig in a live situation. You'd have to unplug the external rig from the effects return. That is unless the M-IV's effects loop is switchable in the preset. This would not work if the loop hard wired to be always on.

One thing to consider that I'm not sure about, is where the effects loop is in the signal chain. Is it before or after the Cab sim? If it's before, you'll have to create a patch with the Cab sim turned off when you use the effects loop.

The Aux in pretty much bypasses all of these considerations because for all intents and purposes, it is a direct line to the power amp. One that can be used in conjunction with the Mustang's preamp - you wouldn't have to do anything to your current presets.
However, what the Aux in does not do is compensate for the Mustang speaker(s) frequency response. This is where a "Flat Response" preamp would help if it were designed to compensate and smooth out the frequency response.
I know that it was originally intended for plugging in MP3/CD players but it would be a lot more practical if it had a 1/4" connector instead of the 1/8" one.

I should also add that I only want a "Flat Response" model so that I don't have to use an external rig for my acoustic - just my Fishman Aura Spectrum on my existing pedal board through the main input.
O.


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:22 am
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Hey Orcatraz,

I'm admittedly a little ignorant of the internal workings of amps. :oops: And to be honest, I would use a flat model or bypass mode more for computer recording purposes rather than live situations. I just know that some other modeling/multi-effects units that I've worked with in the past have had a "bypass" mode that did exactly what the people in this thread are asking for in the Mustang. Also, these other units that I speak of were floor units, aka multi-effect pedals. I know that combining an amp and multi-effects probably adds unique design factors. I'll leave it up to Fender to figure out how to make it work. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:37 am
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Hi, Scorpaeon.

Now I get it. I undermean your standing. So, basically you, me, johnjaypl and a bunch of other people are all looking for the same thing. You know, as you mentioned most MFX pedals do have some sort of Bypass feature there is typically one problem with all of them - gain. Not gain as in distortion but gain as in useable level. I can't think of one that actually has a dedicated "acoustic" or clean preamp that produces enough useful gain/level to compete with the other models. I've often had to reduce the overall level of ALL of my other presets to compensate for ONE inadequate one. This typically forces the amplification system to be turned up more which leads to more hiss and noise. The only pedal that is better at this than the others is the GT-8 (probably the 10 too) as it has EQs that can be used as level boosters. As complicated as the GTs are, they taught me an awful lot about gain structure. The worst pedal that I own for this is the Tonelab ST. Even it's "clean amp" models' output is downright measly.

If Fender does give us a flat/clean model, I sincerely hope that they don't give us one with a wimpy output.

O.


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:26 pm
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cliffow9 wrote:
Does anyone know how to get straight amp tone, no amp modeling, on the Mustang IV amp


Whatever amp you select you will need to turn off any effects on that amp and you will get the clean tone for that particular amp. Because the Mustang is a modeling amp it merely puts out whatever tones the amp you have selected would put out.

As far as using Amplitube or like myself Guitar Rig4 the best way to do it is to select an amp known for it's "clean sound" turn off the effects for it and use your Amplitube/Guitar Rig as your effects unit. Plug the guitar into the amp send the signal through your interface (in my case the floor Kontrol unit) via the "effects out jacks" and back into the amp through the "effects return jacks". This way you will get the sound you would get by using these software effects through the particular amp you chose. You will need an interface for the software such as the Kontrol unit for Guitar Rig or either the wah pedal type one or floor unit for Amplitube as these allow you to connect your pc/mac to your guitar.

The guitars "clean signal" from the chosen amp is controlled by the software (Amplitube/Guitar Rig) and sent out the speaker(s). I have not tried this yet as I am in Afghanistan and separated from my amp but that is how Loren who is on the staff here explained it to me.

However I too am curious if you can just connect your computer to the amp using the usb, set the amp to your "Clean" setting of choice, bring up the software (Amplitube/Guitar Rig) and be able to choose the amp as your input and output thereby negating the need for the floor controller/interface. Being able to cycle through different presets with the floor unit is a plus for me but for those on a budget this might be a way to go if it's possible.

If I am in error on this I would love to know so when I get home I can immediately get hooked up correctly and start the fun!!


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:07 pm
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apparently what I was told may not be the only way to run things.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=58038&p=700249&sid=5fad146099b95884e038f571f579a640#p700249

wish I was home to try things for myself :cry:


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:42 pm
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Doesn't the Mustang series offer the Fender Acoustic amp? Sorry I forget its name.
Acoustic amps are supposed to offer what you're looking for i.e. " flat " or "transparent"


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:20 pm
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There is no 'real' acoustic amp model on any of the Mustangs, although there have been several requests for one here in the past.

Most people seem to use a clean amp tone as the starting point - twin reverb ?? - and tweak from there - gain all rolled off, eq set for best acoustic tone with your particular guitar etc.

There has also been talk here of being able to set the amps to an 'empty' setting that bypasses all modelling including the basic amp starting point.

There are several 'acoustic' presets in the Fuse library online, and maybe also the 'empty' preset I think.


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:43 pm
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Those acoustic presets maybe very interesting


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:43 pm
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For the record:

After updating my Mustang V head to firmware 1.8, I backed up all 100 presets to my big desktop. Then I unplugged everything and let it sit in the corner of my room for a week. When I came back and plugged it in later, preset 99 had gone from "Basic Peavey 6505" to EMPTY. No amp model, no stomps, no reverb, no nothing.

IF, and I highly stress this word.... IF this has no amp model, this is what people would be asking for and would like to have.

Knowing this, I hooked my netbook up, switched the amp to it, then saved the preset to my computer. Now, if I can just find that preset file, I can put it up on here for everyone to use.

It is, by far, the quietest mode on the amp, considering that the amp is SUPPOSED to be changing the sound to match an amp model, but isn't. So you'll have to adjust the gain/volume to make it useable. But there you have it.

If people post here that they want this preset, I'll see what I can do.


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Post subject: Re: straight amp tone, no modeling, on the mustang IV
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:47 pm
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depepat wrote:
There has also been talk here of being able to set the amps to an 'empty' setting that bypasses all modelling including the basic amp starting point.


Yes, I uploaded one such (called "Empty") not too long ago, for those seeking to truly bypass all amp models.

As FFXIhealer noted, I found that the volume is pretty much the only "amp" control that works, and of course it is relatively quiet. It is of course possible to add effects and build on it too, if desired.

PITA


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