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Post subject: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:14 pm
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Wattage rating of mustang1 speaker?????? I'm going to replace with jenson 25 watt. But I'm curiouse as to the wattage of the stock "special designe" speaker in it. ( FYI ) going to up to a mustange 2. Buddy of mine in FL Installed extension jack on a mstng 2 for two seperate speaker cabs/? jenson mod 50 watts intalled in plastic MILK CRATES. Amp-cable-cab-cable-cab, 2 -16 ohms in parrallel for 8 ohms. Hung them from ceiling at waste level in corners of basement. Oh yea, toggle switch for switching amp spkr to ext. jack. He siad his balls almost blew up. Yeah, loud as hell, he loves the jenson Mod's, great sound.


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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:38 pm
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Well, if you're thinking that more wattage means louder, you'll be sadly disappointed. It's the efficiency that counts. The better question is what is the efficiency rating of the Mustang 1's speaker - that is, with the amplifier putting out 1 watt and at 1 meter away, how many decibels does it produce? That is the true measure of how loud the speaker is. The wattage only tells you how much power it can handle. Also, if a speaker produces 89 db @ 1 watt/meter, that doesn't mean that at 10 watts it'll produce 890 db - not possible. So, knowing that the M1 only produces 20 watts, the more efficient the speaker, the louder the amp will be. But... there's always a but, just because a speaker is more efficient, that doesn't mean it also sounds good. It's always a compromise between efficiency and good sound.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:11 pm
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Thanks for the reply / info, and I do understand what you mean. I had to wrap my head around the math / formulas about 6 months ago. but i'm just trying to find out what the wattage rating is on the stock speaker in the mustange 1. No markings /numbers etc. I know it's 8 ohms !! but no ident / info. Anybody?

As far as higher wattage, I just assumed if you install a higher wattage driver than what the amp pushes you would get less to no clipping. but what is too high of replacement speaker wattage for a given amps wattage. lets say on the mustang 2, 40 watts RMS 80 watts musical power. Is a 50 watt speaker ampull but maybe a 100 watt speaker is too much? I'm guessing one would want a little break up? yes / no? PAQ.


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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:47 am
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Did you try emailing Fender customer support? :idea:


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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:21 am
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paquettelp wrote:
As far as higher wattage, I just assumed if you install a higher wattage driver than what the amp pushes you would get less to no clipping. but what is too high of replacement speaker wattage for a given amps wattage. lets say on the mustang 2, 40 watts RMS 80 watts musical power. Is a 50 watt speaker ampull but maybe a 100 watt speaker is too much? I'm guessing one would want a little break up? yes / no? PAQ.


Hi, PAQ.
With transistor power amps, no matter how high the wattage rating is on the speaker, if you turn the amp up to the max, you can still get power amp clipping which can damage both the amp and the speaker - no matter how high the speaker's wattage rating. Tube amps clip more softly so they're not as damaging and sound really cool when they're breaking up especially when combined with speaker break up. It's the transistor's square wave type clipping that's really damaging and sound completely horrible but again, there are exceptions. Some MOSFET amps apparently break up like a tube amp but I don't know what kind of damage they do to speakers. Overall, a 30 watt speaker ought to do it so the only reason to opt for a higher wattage speaker is if you like its sound and/or it's more efficient and much louder than the lower watt speaker. There's an advantage to high efficiency speakers in that the power amp won't have to work as hard at higher volume levels and you'd have more headroom.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:38 pm
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Hi O. Thank you for info!! Finally!, Someone who knows what there talking about and knows how to explain it. You filled in a lot of gaps for me. Now I can make better educated decisions on speaker choices, not to mention other related topics / areas. Thanks a ton friend !! PAQ.


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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:52 pm
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paquettelp wrote:
Hi O. Thank you for info!! Finally!, Someone who knows what there talking about and knows how to explain it. You filled in a lot of gaps for me. Now I can make better educated decisions on speaker choices, not to mention other related topics / areas. Thanks a ton friend !! PAQ.


No problem, PAQ.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:51 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
paquettelp wrote:
As far as higher wattage, I just assumed if you install a higher wattage driver than what the amp pushes you would get less to no clipping. but what is too high of replacement speaker wattage for a given amps wattage. lets say on the mustang 2, 40 watts RMS 80 watts musical power. Is a 50 watt speaker ampull but maybe a 100 watt speaker is too much? I'm guessing one would want a little break up? yes / no? PAQ.


Hi, PAQ.
With transistor power amps, no matter how high the wattage rating is on the speaker, if you turn the amp up to the max, you can still get power amp clipping which can damage both the amp and the speaker - no matter how high the speaker's wattage rating. Tube amps clip more softly so they're not as damaging and sound really cool when they're breaking up especially when combined with speaker break up. It's the transistor's square wave type clipping that's really damaging and sound completely horrible but again, there are exceptions. Some MOSFET amps apparently break up like a tube amp but I don't know what kind of damage they do to speakers. Overall, a 30 watt speaker ought to do it so the only reason to opt for a higher wattage speaker is if you like its sound and/or it's more efficient and much louder than the lower watt speaker. There's an advantage to high efficiency speakers in that the power amp won't have to work as hard at higher volume levels and you'd have more headroom.

O.

Most tube amps have a push-pull power amp stage which actually tends to cancel even harmonics. And they can also clip fairly hard. The soft-clipping of tube amps while true with respect to single ended amps is a myth with most tube guitar amps.

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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:59 pm
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mhowell wrote:
Most tube amps have a push-pull power amp stage which actually tends to cancel even harmonics. And they can also clip fairly hard. The soft-clipping of tube amps while true with respect to single ended amps is a myth with most tube guitar amps.


Interesting. Would this apply to Marshall style amps or Fender style amps? One thing's for sure, tube amps do sound differently than most solid state amps when clipping.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:52 am
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Orcatraz wrote:
mhowell wrote:
Most tube amps have a push-pull power amp stage which actually tends to cancel even harmonics. And they can also clip fairly hard. The soft-clipping of tube amps while true with respect to single ended amps is a myth with most tube guitar amps.


Interesting. Would this apply to Marshall style amps or Fender style amps? One thing's for sure, tube amps do sound differently than most solid state amps when clipping.

O.

This would apply to any tube amp that employs a push pull power stage, which is most tube amps. Only a few low power amps would be single ended - fender champs, '50s princetons, etc.

Except for the champs and other low power tube amps the biggest difference in the tone of a tube amp is due to the fact that tube circuitry has a high impedance output vs the low impedance output of SS amps. This necessitates the need for an output transformer in tube circuits in order to match the high output impedance to the low impedance of the speakers. The tube amps response varies with frequency response characteristics of the speakers. I don't know for sure but I've heard that the Marshall Valvestate amps are solid state amps designed with a high impedance output to mimic this characteristic of tube amps.

I think the main cause of the bad reputation of SS amps is that most of the early SS amps truly sucked. However, they sucked because of poor design and poor manufacturing quality, not because there is anything inherently wrong with transistors. By the mid to late 70's there were some nice SS amps on the market. The Roland JC 120 which first came out in 1975 is an awesome amp.

Modern SS amps are still more prone to tone issues than tube amps but again it's due to poor design and manufacturing quality. With a solid state amp a manufacturer can buy cheap transistors or a single amp chip, a few resistors and capacitors, maybe a couple of diodes that are used to make a crappy distortion circuit, match it to a particle board cabinet, and a cheap speaker and market a guitar amp that sucks.

If a manufacturer is going to market a tube amp it will usually have to be an expensive amp because tubes, transformers, and sockets are expensive and drive the overall cost. Therefore more care usually (but not always) goes into it's design and build quality.

Modeling amps are getting really close to mimicking genuine tube circuits. I'll bet you could not tell the difference in a double blind test. The key to such a test is to run the amps into the same speakers. You probably could pick out your own personal amp in such test but you would not be able to tell a random tube amp from the modeling amp.

Despite all that I still love tube amps. I have a '66 Princeton reverb and I take better care of that amp than my kids. :) But my love for tube amps is more because of the history, heritage, and nostalgia and not a belief that tubes have a better tone than SS.

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Post subject: Re: Wattage of mustang "stock" speakers
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:30 am
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mhowell wrote:

I think the main cause of the bad reputation of SS amps is that most of the early SS amps truly sucked. However, they sucked because of poor design and poor manufacturing quality, not because there is anything inherently wrong with transistors. By the mid to late 70's there were some nice SS amps on the market. The Roland JC 120 which first came out in 1975 is an awesome amp.

Modern SS amps are still more prone to tone issues than tube amps but again it's due to poor design and manufacturing quality. With a solid state amp a manufacturer can buy cheap transistors or a single amp chip, a few resistors and capacitors, maybe a couple of diodes that are used to make a crappy distortion circuit, match it to a particle board cabinet, and a cheap speaker and market a guitar amp that sucks.

If a manufacturer is going to market a tube amp it will usually have to be an expensive amp because tubes, transformers, and sockets are expensive and drive the overall cost. Therefore more care usually (but not always) goes into it's design and build quality.

Modeling amps are getting really close to mimicking genuine tube circuits. I'll bet you could not tell the difference in a double blind test. The key to such a test is to run the amps into the same speakers. You probably could pick out your own personal amp in such test but you would not be able to tell a random tube amp from the modeling amp.

Despite all that I still love tube amps. I have a '66 Princeton reverb and I take better care of that amp than my kids. :) But my love for tube amps is more because of the history, heritage, and nostalgia and not a belief that tubes have a better tone than SS.


I could not agree with you more on this... well except for the kids part - I don't have any. :lol:
I've always wanted to see a true blind hearing test with a tube amp and a Mustang III behind an acoustically transparent curtain, set up to sound as close to each other as possible. Then have a "tube snob" guitar player come in and see if he can hear the difference. I'm betting that he/she won't be able to.

Yeah, I'd love to have an old Vibroverb or Vibrolux just to have one but not because they're "better".

In my experience, the old Princetons and Deluxes do distort more smoothly than other amps, especially the old SS amps I've had. That said, I've never tried to get the power section of a JC-120 or a Lab Series amp to distort - too loud! It would be interesting to try it in a recording studio though. Not sure about how the Mustangs would fair and as inexpensive as they are, I'm not sure I'd want to push them that hard.

The bottom line for me, is that the Mustangs sound so good that I don't need to make their power section distort to get the sounds I want. To me, that's what counts.

O.


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