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Post subject: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:57 am
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OK guys - update on the Mustang III - I've only had it since Wednesday afternoon, so it's still early days yet.  Strangely, although a UK 220/240v model, it came with a US power lead, but the store sent on a UK lead (I have loads of these anyway).  First impressions (amended) are as follows:

PRESETS

As I reported earlier, when I first plugged in and scrolled through the pre-sets I was a decidedly under-whelmed. Although there are some goodies, as is common with all modeling amps most are overdone effects wise so don't go by these - they're not a fair reflection of what the amp is capable of!  But the more I've tweaked (see below) and the more I play it, the more I like it.

VOLUME

This is one LOUD amp, that is more than loud enough to compete with even the most enthusiastic drummer without needing to mike up.

SPEAKER

The Celestion is pretty good and I can't think anyone would need to change it. Excellent low end response for the 'thump' you associate with valve amps.

FUNCTIONALITY

Very cleverly designed.  Speaker cab emulations are variable between each amp model so if you want a Champ through a 4x12 you can have it.  

But what's impressive is the ability to change things like SAG and BIAS settings within each amp model so whether you like your amps tight or looser, or with sharper or warmer response, you can tweak the amp model to suit.  These are things I've not seen in any other modeling amp and, combined with choosing the right speaker cab, are IMHO the secret to getting really good tone from the amp.  


EFFECTS

With the exception of the ring modulator (which I think is a waste of time in any amp or MFX unit) these are all very good - sine and triangle options, and each effect allows full tweakability as if you were using the real thing (except the simple compressor which has a single control - but there's a full compressor too).  You can select ONE each from reverb, delay, modulation or stomp pedal (compressor, overdrive etc) and use them together, but you can't select compressor & overdrive as these are in the same 'section' (same as my VTX).

DISPLAY

Not a big display, but adequate & very clear, you can adjust the LCD contrast, and its lit so you'll easily see it on a darkened stage; ditto the various buttons that light up

NOISEGATE

Excellent - staggered positions rather than fully variable, but it works very well, and is very effective.  Factory presets that I thought a little noisy/hissy went almost virtually quiet by using the first 'step', and even noisier presets using a high gain amp model and overdrive went virtually silent by the 'second step',  so noise is not an issue with this amp.  

TUNER

Fully chromatic, nice display, easy to use and certainly accurate enough for most folk.  

GIGGABILITY

You definitely need the optional 4 button footswitch if you are going to gig this puppy

WEIGHT

Ridiculously light for a 1x12" 100w amp - for me, this is a big plus.

UPGRADEABILITY/SOFTWARE

The amp ships with v1.5 firmware and there are already upgrades.  Fender seems to be very attentive to the Fender forums and the latest firmware fixes some of the things folk have picked up on.  I haven't upgraded the amp yet but will be doing so.

Unlike Mustang II, everything seems tweakable directly from the amp.  So, whilst the FUSE software looks good and you're working on a big screen with (possibly) finer control & the ability to save unlimited patches and organise patches around, you can actually work quite happily from the amp.  With the smaller Mustang II you need FUSE for deep editing.  

TONES/QUALITY OF AMP MODELING

Left this to last intentionally.  I've been comparing this to my Vox Valvetronix rig with BBE Sonic Stomp and EQ in the FX loop, and my Laney VC30-210 rig.  Whilst the Mustang III doesn't feel quite like an all-tube amp, considering that it's full solidstate with no valves its very good indeed and is very similar to my AD120VTX but without needing the extra pedals in the FX loop.  It's very responsive, has excellent touch sensitivity, and responds well to guitar volume roll off.  

If you watch some of the you-tube demo's (Chappers did one for Andertons) they weren't impressed with the high-gain presets.  Ignore that - tweaked properly with the right cab and a few tweaks of the SAG and BIAS settings, and the high gain models are very good.  The Fender models ditto - I can't emphasise enough how cab model, sag and bias changes spectacularly alter the feel, punch & playing dynamics.  So, like many modeling amps, this is NOT a plug 'n play amp but although some tweaking is needed, you won't need a lot.

The Fender spring reverbs are spot on, and the range of Fender amps on offer means there's something in there to suit everyone.  

EASE OF USE

The amp is very intuitive - I intentionally haven't even opened the manual yet (but I will do) but I've still been able to suss out how pretty much everything works in about half an hour.  

WILL I KEEP IT?

Honest answer is I'm not sure yet.  It will give me very similar tones to my AD120VTX rig but I think overall my AD120VTX rig still has the edge and the VC12 floorcontroller gives way more gigability control than even the Mustangs 4-button footswitch option.  If I didn't have the VTX I'd keep the Mustang in a second as I think it's the best of the modeling amps currently out there including the new Vox Valvetronix VT+ which although has more 'regular' dial controls for easier tweakability, I think is too hissy and lacks parameter controls. It also has a 'cymbal-like' trail off on many models but because there is no firmware upgradeability you're stuck with this. Vox really does need to to add usb upgradeability.  I have the VT40+ on loan currently, so I realise  a 1x12" vs 1x10" comparison is not necessarily the fairest.  

For me, the MIII has the advantage that I can get similar VTX rig tones in a much smaller, lighter package, which is very attractive.  But the VTX is easier to tweak (simpler controls, less parameters, but all physical dials with no menus), & the gigging flexibility of the VC12 is superior.

VALUE

For about £200 this amp is phenomenal value and it sounds very good indeed.  The software package is generous and from what I've seen, Fender is clearly committed to improving the firmware.  The amps look good (although everyone will likely have their own opinions)

UPSIDES

1. Great tone (when tweaked properly) and good feel, touch sensitivity, response
2. Love the ability to alter sag, bias & cabs on all 12 amp models - makes a HUGE difference!
3. Very good effects, excellent delay/reverb options, reasonable stomp box selection (Fender may add to these)
4. Very light & compact for a 100w amp
5. Good speaker
6. Cheap as chips!!  
7. Looks good and appears well put together
8. Firmware upgradeability
9. Software package
10. Very good modeling
11. 2-button and 4-button pedals can be used together
12. It's LOUD!
13. Good built in chromatic tuner
14. Serial effects loop and outs for headphone, USB, Aux

DOWNSIDES

1. Need 4-pedal footswitch if you're gigging - the 2-button pedal it comes with can be set to do different things, but isn't flexible enough on its own
2. There is no extn cab out on the combo's so you can't plug it into a separate cab - I think this is a BIG omission.  NOTE:The Mustang V head (2x75w stereo) is the same price as the Mustang III, & it comes with the 4-button switch as standard so if you're a serious gigger with cabs of your own then this is definitely worth checking out!
3. Even though I can move around reasonably quickly, on stage, I think the ease/speed of tweakability is an issue with the rotary controller and LCD menu, and isn't as convenient as a direct 'knob' type layout.
4. Not for those wanting a 'plug 'n play' amp that will give instant gratification - but in fairness the same can be said of probably all modeling amps.  
5. Most factory presets are overdone (pretty typical)
6. No wah on floor pedal so you'll need external unit if you want wah-wah
7. Ring modulation is (IMHO) a useless effect (but some may like it)

VERDICT

Regardless of whether I decide to keep it or not (which is a personal needs driven thing) I think Fender has a winner and IMHO it's the best value and best sounding modeling amp currently out there.  A good valve amp (but not all) will still have the edge for some folk - but if you're in the market for a modeling combo with great tone that's phenomenal value, and arguably a cut above the competition, you could do a lot, lot worse than the Mustang series!

Rich  :)

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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:55 am
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That's high praise, knowing your background! Are you planning on doing a vid with some of your tweaked tones? It'd be great to compare with your VT series & blue series vids.

Bob


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:15 am
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A very well thought out and written review, Rockcat. Thanks.

O.


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:22 am
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Nice. Thanks!

I'm just missing one thing people usually don't mention when giving their impressions: what guitars/pickups were you using, and what's your music styles?


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:35 am
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Rockcat - thanks for your detailed review. I am a fairly new guitarist and don't have an ear for many of the nuances you bring up in your analysis. Apparently, ignorance is bliss because I have been very happy with many of the factory presets and the accompanying tones.

My question now is - what have I been missing tone wise?? You have opened my eyes that the Mustang can sound even better. Would it be possible to share some of your "tweaked" presets so that us novices can hear them and benefit from the full breadth of the amp?

I have a Mustang IV which probably puts out a little more oomph and depth, but now I feel like I've been missing out.

So thanks again for your awesome review - but at the same time, thanks for making me feel cheated with the factory presets :)

Cheers!


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:39 am
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Hi guys - first thing to say is that tone is a very personal thing. We all like different things and have different frames of reference. Having been playing for about 40 yrs, I've owned or played through most 'name' amps. Also, I've learned how to get killer tones from my AD120VTX but also know the beauty of a good tube amp.

Problem though is that with tube amps you have to really raise up the volume to push the power-tubes and unless you're regularly gigging at stage volumes they're totally impractical for bedroom/amateur players plus they weigh a ton! The market's full of low wattage tube amps but IMHO whilst these will give you pushed tube distortion at low volumes, they lack clean headroom and without a decent size speaker you simply won't get that 'thump' associated with tube amps.

One of the nicest little all valve amps I've played and I was going to buy prior to the MIII (and still might if I return the MIII) is the Laney Cub 12R. 15w, all-tube, class A/B, great cleans, good headroom, with a nice distortion. What I particularly like is that it has 2 inpus - regular, and 'under 1w) that let's you push the amp more at lower volumes (still surprisingly loud though). It has a reasonable 12" Celestion 'entry level' Rocket 50 speaker that isn't at all bad. Also, you get a serial FX loop and an extn speaker out switchable for 8 or 16 Ohm loads, and a reverb which (although digital) actually sounds very nice and isn't overdone. Re EQ in addition to Treb, Mid, Bass, it has a 'tone' control that effectively acts as a presence control. All this makes the Cub 12R a very versatile & great sounding little amp that has a far bigger tone than it's compact size suggests. Downside is that it is only single channel though, so it has no footswitchable 'gain' channel 'kick-in'.

So far, I've tried out the MIII with my PRS Cu24, 2009 Limited Edition Daphne Blue US Standard Strat (which has Delta tone pot), original 1969 Strat, and my 1989 US Fender Telecaster. The MIII sounds great with all of them. I'll be trying out my Gibson Les Paul Custom and Epiphone Sheraton II. Re. the Epi, I've just had the very lack-lustre stock p/ups replaced with a matched set of Seymour Duncan SH1 59's (great p/ups), so it's now about as near to a 335 as I can get. I'll let you know how I get on.

I have a very good relationship with Vox so I'll have to think about doing a video. Maybe a direct comparison with my AD120VTX rig might be a good approach.

Re factory presets, their main purpose is to demonstrate the amps capabilities re types of gain. amp models, stomp effects, reverb & delay types etc. They are set by someone who thinks they sound good to their ears and for their guitar. We all have different ears and guitars, so presets are typically just a starting point only to give you ideas.

Re tweaks to the MIII, I've found that by lowering the Sag in particular can make a spectacular difference that really opens up the tone. Also, I like the 4x12M speaker cab setting for a bigger, fuller tone. Adjusting the bias settings gives more subtle differences at lower volume but make a bigger difference as you raise the volume. I'm also experimenting re turning the cab models off with certain amp models - haven't come to any conclusions with that yet.

As an example, try this and see how you get on, using the 00 Liquid Solo preset (this was with my Les Paul Custom with stock humbuckers):

Reduce delay level to 3.0, reverb level to 2.4, amp gain to 7.0
Set SAG to 'less', Bias to +50% and up the Presence to 6.6

You should find the difference is spectacular - from an overly processed tone to one that's a real rock tone with real balls & bite - play it with the Master at 3 as a minimum to give the speaker a chance to do it's work. Let me know how you get on.

And here's a single tweak that converts a good rock preset to one with real balls - Pre-set 001 Whitechapel Heavy - just drop the SAG to 'Less' and hear the difference!


Many of the pre-sets sound better with lower gain settings, and reducing the amount of reverb/delay. I quite like the 65 spring reverb and tape delay combination set a little more subtly as my 'starting point' although other reverbs and delays can sound very nice too, provided these aren't overdone.

The effect I'm most disappointed with is the compressor that I don't find does an awful lot. I'm still experimenting here but so far the compressor in my AD120VTX and the Boss CS3 in my pedalboard are way better. If anyone has some good compressor settings to share I'd be interested to hear them - think Wishbone Ash 'Blowin' Free' and Dire Straits album version of 'Sultans of Swing' and other tracks on their first album.

Rich :wink:

PS BTW, I seem to be getting some posting problems on this forum with a 'technical difficulties' or 'SQL General Error' warning flashing up sometimes - problem with the board?

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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:37 pm
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Thanks for your take two review:

I have no idea who you are but seems some of the others do but in short,,,,,,,,,,,,,, if your looking for an amp that will sound like a Marshall and or a Vox i really don't think this amp is for you. If your looking for vintage Fender tube amp tones then this amp "could" be for you.

I think that Fender made these amps way to complicated for older guitar players ( i am 55 but have all kinds of gadgets and build peecee's ) and probably most of the older players do not want a SS amp anyway even though these are way lighter than a Twin. I know an 80+ year old male guitar player that won one of these amps (MIII) and he sold it not long after he opened the box and plugged it in.

My MIII was kind of intimidating to me for the first half hour after i opened the box..........

Again Rockcat thank you for your take two review.


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:34 pm
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rolling56 wrote:
Thanks for your take two review:

I have no idea who you are but seems some of the others do but in short,,,,,,,,,,,,,, if your looking for an amp that will sound like a Marshall and or a Vox i really don't think this amp is for you. If your looking for vintage Fender tube amp tones then this amp "could" be for you.

I think that Fender made these amps way to complicated for older guitar players ( i am 55 but have all kinds of gadgets and build peecee's ) and probably most of the older players do not want a SS amp anyway even though these are way lighter than a Twin. I know an 80+ year old male guitar player that won one of these amps (MIII) and he sold it not long after he opened the box and plugged it in.

My MIII was kind of intimidating to me for the first half hour after i opened the box..........

Again Rockcat thank you for your take two review.



If you are new to modelers I can see how you would find the Mustang complicated compared to a tube amp. In the world of modelers, however, this is actually a quite simple, very straight forward amp.


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:59 pm
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rolling56 wrote:
Thanks for your take two review:

I have no idea who you are but seems some of the others do but in short,,,,,,,,,,,,,, if your looking for an amp that will sound like a Marshall and or a Vox i really don't think this amp is for you. If your looking for vintage Fender tube amp tones then this amp "could" be for you.

Hi - nothing could be further from the truth. The MIII actually covers Marshall & Vox exremely well - in fact, surprisingly so. If I didn't know better I'd say the modeling was lifted straight out of the Vox Valvetronix Blue series amps. With a BBE Sonic stomp and EQ in the FX loop of my AD120VTX I can get these 2 amps to match amp modeling almost perfectly and both capture Fender, Vox and Marshall tones very well. Although the Mustang is made by Fender and a lot of different Fender amps are modeled, I haven't yet found a Fender amp tone in the Mustang III that I can't replicate with one of the 16 amp models in my AD120VTX (which inc. Bassman, Blackface, and 1x12" Tweed models). Much is to do with whether the amp is Class A or class A/B, and the tonestack positions of which there are three basic amp configurations. In fact, early Marshalls were based around the Bassman amp design. The rest is simply down to EQ - something I've developed some degree of instinctive skill with over the years.

There are of course some differences with regards effects & the wider effect parameter controls in the MIII vs AD120VTX, certain delay options, and certain effects which are unique to both amps - for example the deep 63 reverb and ring modulator in the MIII, as against the tube overdrive, acoustic simulator and wah effects in the Valvetronix. But the base amp modeling is almost identical - & I used the 'Basic' models at the end of the MIII amp selections for comparisons.


I think that Fender made these amps way to complicated for older guitar players ( i am 55 but have all kinds of gadgets and build peecee's ) and probably most of the older players do not want a SS amp anyway even though these are way lighter than a Twin. I know an 80+ year old male guitar player that won one of these amps (MIII) and he sold it not long after he opened the box and plugged it in.

I'm 54 this year so we're pretty much the same age, and I was brought up on valve amps. I've owned a catalogue of amps inc. Fender Blackface/Silverface, Vox AC30, Marshall Plexi 50w, JCM800, JTM45, a 2x10 Marshall 18w 1957, Selmer Zodiac, Sound City 100w head, Peavey Classic 30, Laney 50w head, Laney VC30-210 (which I still have), orange 50w head, etc etc & I've played probably every major amp type so I'm well versed in both the charms & tribulations of valve amps.

But I'm also more than very familiar with modeling amps, having had significant experience with Boss GT3/GT5 MFX units, & the Line 6 Flextone and Vetta series, before acquiring my AD120VTX in Jan 2004 which is still my main gigging rig. Particular with the Valvetronix range I think it's reasonable to say that I have some expertise with these amps. But they are not 'plug 'n play' and require a different approach with a greater understanding of EQ and 'tone-building', so I can quite understand how an 80 yr old would want to stick with a traditional 'straight' all-valve rig. BTW - I hope I'm still playing at 80! :D

For those that just need a narrow range of specific tones, valve amps can't be beaten albeit they have to be cranked to get the power-valves cooking - necessary to get the best from them - and they're no good for late night practice! Some folk use power attenuators but these all sap tone to some extent.

Modelers are for those that want/need a wide range of tones (eg play covers) and play a lot at home/smaller clubs, and are willing to accept a degree of compromise tonally in exchange for greater tonal versatility, convenience and lighter weight (eg one amp with FX to do it all) nominal or no maintenance, cheaper cost, and no running costs (ie no tubes to replace, service costs etc). It's a 'horses for courses' thing.


My MIII was kind of intimidating to me for the first half hour after i opened the box..........

If you're less familiar with modeling amps, I can understand that - but actually the MIII is quite intuitive and easy to use. :wink:

Again Rockcat thank you for your take two review.

And thanks for reading it! :D


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:42 am
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RoKcat . . . . you might want to think about a Mustang V Head. It's super light, has all the pluses of the M III. It has two 75 watt speaker outs and stereo efx send/return. It could make a great back up pre amp into your "main" amp and it is only $299 US.

I'm using one with a custom built 2x12 cab with EV12M-Ls and it's killing everything else I have. Some of the 1x12 amps sound great with a custom cab I use with a Celestion Vintage 30.

I did have the Vox AD120VTX for a while and liked it a lot - can't remember why I sold it? - Progably to buy something else - GAS!


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:49 am
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Hi GB - yup, I've already thought about the V - but see my 'dilema' thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=55041

I like the MIII but it needs the 4-pedal, & I don't want to have to pay another £60-70 to get one. I don't understand why the MIII only comes with the 2 pedal. :( . It's illogical from both a marketing and 'model positioning' perspective. Let me explain why I think Fender has got this wrong.

The Mustang I & II are aimed squarely at bedroom and small club players respectively where patch switching is not an issue - the M II, (similar to the Valvetronix VT40+), is the model variant in the range that's the biggest mass seller & where Fender sells considerably more M II units than other variants.

But the 100w Mustang III and 2x75w Mustang IV and Mustang V are by definition specifically aimed at the more serious gigging players (otherwise you wouldn't need the extra power!). Here, you have GOT to have the ability to switch between patch banks quickly - most buyers will be playing covers and/or a wide range of styles, hence the need for this type of amp & the need to move between patches easily.

Now, here's the ridiculous thing that's doing my head in, so to speak. In the UK, not only is the big Mustang V Head (which is 2x75w stereo) the same price as the Mustang III, the V actually ships with the 4-pedal footswitch, whereas the III only ships with the 2-button which is quite frankly, almost useless for gigging as it can only be set to a single mode. The Mustang IV is too big and heavy for me. I could buy the Mustang V as I have the AD212 cab, but I'd be back to schlapping more gear with speaker cables that I'd have to set up, and the V is big - it's as wide as my AD120VTX! So bang would go the convenience of a 100w 1x12" combo & I'd have a storage issue in my modest size den.

I'm now in the ridiculous position of really liking the Mustang III, which I would normally love to keep - but I will likely be returning it because paying an extra £70 for the 4-button footswitch (a third of the amp price!) is simply not financially viable. Why? Because for £225 I can buy the Laney Cub 12R (a very loud class A/B all valve 1x12" amp, that I could use with my TonelabST).

There's not even an option at the point of sale for swapping the 2-button for a 4-button at a discounted price (say £25-30). I simply do not understand Fender's marketing approach here - it's as if the extra cost of the 4-button pedal being charged to Mustang III owners is being used to subsidise the Mustang V package!?!

I feel so strongly about this, I've written to Fender to explain the above. :x

Rich :wink:

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Last edited by Rockcat on Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:14 am
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Excellent review, Rockcat.
I agree, the real beauty of the mustang amps comes when you venture past the presets and start tweeking them. Sag, Bias and EQ make a big diffeence, and the pre-gain on most of the presets is set way too high. Using the noise gate also quiets many of the other models down.

I have been playng since '75 as a sophomore in High School and have never been more excited about an amp. I traded my Ampeg VT-22 in for my MIII and haven't looked back.

Mine came with firmware 1.3 and the upgraded firmware has made a noticable improvement. I can't wait to see what else Fender adds to this amp series via future firmware updates. The sky's the limit!

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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:58 am
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umm Rockcat my meaning by the 30 minutes time it took me to figure it out, i meant it's very easy to use :lol:

I haven't even looked at the manual for the thing........i've flashed many CD and DVD drives firmware so that was a breeze.

Edit:

Check this thread out :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=55257


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:09 pm
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Rockcat wrote:
NOISEGATE

Excellent - staggered positions rather than fully variable, but it works very well, and is very effective.  Factory presets that I thought a little noisy/hissy went almost virtually quiet by using the first 'step', and even noisier presets using a high gain amp model and overdrive went virtually silent by the 'second step',  so noise is not an issue with this amp.  


Glad you mentioned this, I've been very impressed with the versatility of the MIII's noise gate.


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Post subject: Re: First impressions of Mustang III - take two!
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:11 pm
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As I go through my guitars I continue to be amazed at how different axes sound radically different through the III, each one really liking certain presets and others hating them with a passion, or just sounding odd and crappy.

Finally got around to trying out my MIJ Charvel TE Custom with Jackson pickups (hot SCs) and holy carp, a preset (12-60's Sparkle) that just sounded generic and nothing with other axes suddenly leaps out and is giving me all kinds of awesome SRV tones!

If you really want to get crazy and waste a few months try going through the good presets (I basically only like about 10-15 of them) with a Variax! After about 4 hours with mine trying a blizzard of combinations I realized I would have no life left if I kept up with that. But it is MONUMENTAL fun, especially given that the amp models become all-new with each new guitar model--the Mustang Syndrome mentioned above. And when you get into the utility models like dobro and National Steel and whatever the III's vast flexibility really bails out some of the inherent weaknesses of the Variax models. Or at least you come out with something brand new, and for recording, brand new is often a Good Thing.


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Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

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