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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:13 am
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Aspiring Musician
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jedi2b wrote:
For those trying to decide between a good quality modelling amp (i.e. Mustang) and pick-your-flavor of tube amp, I have found there are 3 factors to consider:

-the practical aspect: you are new to guitar playing, or even better you are NOT new but you want to experiment new things. Would you like to, turning a knob go from a jazz ultrawarm tone to a zombie-apealing death metal tone? and all that without having to fiddle with tons of pedals and equipment. Or what about going around with your "rig" carrying all you need in one hand, weighing less than 40 pounds? In other words would you like to spend more time playing or building lego-like rigs? if you are here to play guitar, maybe the Mustang is the best choice.

-the cost and resale value aspect: with a tube amp you get an expensive (or VERY expensive) piece of equipment with technology dating back to the 1940's, fragile, costly to maintain and with a good reselling value. With a Mustang you get an inexpensive solution that you will use until you decide to trow it away, probably 5-10 years from now. Oh, and with the Mustangs you will not hear ever again your wife complaining that you need yet ANOTHER pedal for that damn guitar.

-the glamour aspect: lets' say you have long fingernails, you want to cut them short, you have the option of buying a diamond incrusted fingernail clipper vs a deluxe swiss army knife. If you would ratter have the deluxe swiss army knife, get yourself a Mustang!



Then of course to finish this all, you get the feel/touch/mojo/vibe tone factor, or whatever you want to call it. This is a very interesting comparison somebody did recording with a Mustang and with a Fender Deluxe amp, then asked people to recognize which recording was made with which amp...


-A/B comparisson of Mustang (300$) with Deluxe reverb reissue amp (1050$)
-same sound clip recorded on the two amps, you have to decide which one is the real deluxe
-52% says the real deluxe is the clip A
-47% says the real deluxe is the clip B

I will let you judge how real the tube tone is on the Mustangs :)

this is the link to the poll
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... 2-DR-model


BTW most people identified the recording made with the Mustang as the one made with a "real tube amp"! LOL


True that, however a recording hides some of the aspects of what makes an amp different to another. And that is FEEL, the way the player feels the attack response of the bass notes and the way the air moves around the amp. You don't just hear sound, you can feel it. I find a recording is altered through the process such that 2 different amps can sound the same because some of the feeling is missing that could differentiate it.

A person needs to play a tube and solid state amp and decide how they feel. As gear can inspire you or make you feel unfulfilled with your playing.

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BASS: Fender USA 58'AVRI
AMP: Fender USA SuperSonicTwin - Blonde.
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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:39 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:08 am
Posts: 824
Hi AaronK,

While I agree that we are talking music and sound here, so this is by definition subjective, I think some concepts could be useful to take away the mystic part off of the equation and help new guitar players that are undecided on the way to follow.

If I understand it correctly, what you refer about feel could be mostly summarized by two (very) important factors, that thankfully, are measurable and comparable.

The first is the attack response from the amp. This is caused by a very well understood phenomenon of compression of tubes before they enter clipping. Essentially the closest the DSP inside the emulation amp can mimic this compression/clip mix, depending on the note attacks, the closer it will react like a tube amp. This requires some important processing power.
Thankfully in the last couple of years this technology became dirt cheap. Before this we only got cheap compression/clip emulations as is the case of the Line 6, Digitech, etc. The newer generation (found in the Mustangs, or the insanely expensive axe-fx, or used by computer emulations like Amplitude) should be enough to satisfy most people.

Regarding the second concept, air movement, that is also totally true, unfortunately, having a real tube amp will not warrant to improve this factor, as it depends on the speakers and not the amp technology. This is the main reason a Mustang 5 sounds better than a Mustang 4 that sounds better than a Mustang 3 :) and many times the best upgrade you can perform to ANY amp is to switch speakers.

Tube emulation is by no means perfect, but the gain in sound quality of real tube amps is getting so small that eventually, tube amps will be for the purist more than anybody else, in the same way Hi-Fi audio tube amps are today (they still exist if you can pay the price!) compared to the regular solid state amps used in any home-theater system.

Anywho, as an experiment, if you have a mustang amp at hand, I would suggest to download this preset, and try it with different guitar volumes and different pick attacks. I think this is a good demonstration of what the Mustangs are able to do:
https://fuse.fender.com/mustang/presets ... bassman-v2
and here's another one, bit less hot and bit more lo-fi:
https://fuse.fender.com/mustang/presets ... amy-prince


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:00 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
jedi2b wrote:
For those trying to decide between a good quality modelling amp (i.e. Mustang) and pick-your-flavor of tube amp, I have found there are 3 factors to consider:

-the practical aspect: you are new to guitar playing, or even better you are NOT new but you want to experiment new things. Would you like to, turning a knob go from a jazz ultrawarm tone to a zombie-apealing death metal tone? and all that without having to fiddle with tons of pedals and equipment. Or what about going around with your "rig" carrying all you need in one hand, weighing less than 40 pounds? In other words would you like to spend more time playing or building lego-like rigs? if you are here to play guitar, maybe the Mustang is the best choice.

-the cost and resale value aspect: with a tube amp you get an expensive (or VERY expensive) piece of equipment with technology dating back to the 1940's, fragile, costly to maintain and with a good reselling value. With a Mustang you get an inexpensive solution that you will use until you decide to trow it away, probably 5-10 years from now. Oh, and with the Mustangs you will not hear ever again your wife complaining that you need yet ANOTHER pedal for that damn guitar.

-the glamour aspect: lets' say you have long fingernails, you want to cut them short, you have the option of buying a diamond incrusted fingernail clipper vs a deluxe swiss army knife. If you would ratter have the deluxe swiss army knife, get yourself a Mustang!



Then of course to finish this all, you get the feel/touch/mojo/vibe tone factor, or whatever you want to call it. This is a very interesting comparison somebody did recording with a Mustang and with a Fender Deluxe amp, then asked people to recognize which recording was made with which amp...


-A/B comparisson of Mustang (300$) with Deluxe reverb reissue amp (1050$)
-same sound clip recorded on the two amps, you have to decide which one is the real deluxe
-52% says the real deluxe is the clip A
-47% says the real deluxe is the clip B

I will let you judge how real the tube tone is on the Mustangs :)

this is the link to the poll
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... 2-DR-model


BTW most people identified the recording made with the Mustang as the one made with a "real tube amp"! LOL


+1

Another great post jedi2b!!!

I picked the wrong one as being the *real* amp and I own two Deluxe Reverb Reissues and a Mustang amp and a Floor. I own a recording studio and know how subjective recording can be based on all of the factors taken into account when one records but with that said I was floored that the one i thought was *real* wasn't real at all. :lol:

Also, yes, tube amps are expensive to maintain and unpredictable and more of a one trick pony with no pun intended. :)

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:23 pm
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Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 75
So which was the mustang clip A or B?
I liked the sound of clip B more
Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:48 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 2:49 am
Posts: 560
Location: Perth, Australia
Yes Jed, I wasn't questioning the ability of the Mustang, I was questioning the validity of using a recording of two amps as a comparison test. To truly compare amps one must be In front of them physically together whilst they are being played. Basically it boils down to the fact that one should go and play an amp before deciding to live with it. And that modern DSP amps like the Mustang may surprise many.

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BASS: Fender USA 58'AVRI
AMP: Fender USA SuperSonicTwin - Blonde.
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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:01 am
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Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:18 am
Posts: 184
I find this interesting for comparision pourpses:

Quote:
I attempted to eq them the same. The real DRRI doesn't have a middle pot (uses a fixed 6.8k resistor), while the mustang amp model does allow adjusting the middle. The treble/bass on the amp model don't respond exactly like the real amp either. So, I tried to get them close, by ear. They do sound different in the recording, even w/the same mic and recording settings though. Hope that helps!


Many models have expanded controls that, at the end of the day, let you expand the tonal capability compared with the original.

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I love my Mustang!

---------------------

You can find all my Mustang tips here:
http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/
An Unofficial guide to Fender Mustang Effects here:
http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/p/unoffcial-guide-to-fender-mustang.html

USB Footswitch Opensource Project:

https://github.com/mordor74/mustang-raider


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:33 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 739
jedi2b wrote:
For those trying to decide between a good quality modelling amp (i.e. Mustang) and pick-your-flavor of tube amp, I have found there are 3 factors to consider:

-the practical aspect: you are new to guitar playing, or even better you are NOT new but you want to experiment new things. Would you like to, turning a knob go from a jazz ultrawarm tone to a zombie-apealing death metal tone? and all that without having to fiddle with tons of pedals and equipment. Or what about going around with your "rig" carrying all you need in one hand, weighing less than 40 pounds? In other words would you like to spend more time playing or building lego-like rigs? if you are here to play guitar, maybe the Mustang is the best choice.

-the cost and resale value aspect: with a tube amp you get an expensive (or VERY expensive) piece of equipment with technology dating back to the 1940's, fragile, costly to maintain and with a good reselling value. With a Mustang you get an inexpensive solution that you will use until you decide to trow it away, probably 5-10 years from now. Oh, and with the Mustangs you will not hear ever again your wife complaining that you need yet ANOTHER pedal for that damn guitar.

-the glamour aspect: lets' say you have long fingernails, you want to cut them short, you have the option of buying a diamond incrusted fingernail clipper vs a deluxe swiss army knife. If you would ratter have the deluxe swiss army knife, get yourself a Mustang!



Then of course to finish this all, you get the feel/touch/mojo/vibe tone factor, or whatever you want to call it. This is a very interesting comparison somebody did recording with a Mustang and with a Fender Deluxe amp, then asked people to recognize which recording was made with which amp...


-A/B comparisson of Mustang (300$) with Deluxe reverb reissue amp (1050$)
-same sound clip recorded on the two amps, you have to decide which one is the real deluxe
-52% says the real deluxe is the clip A
-47% says the real deluxe is the clip B

I will let you judge how real the tube tone is on the Mustangs :)

this is the link to the poll
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... 2-DR-model


BTW most people identified the recording made with the Mustang as the one made with a "real tube amp"! LOL


I just went there and amp A sounded way better and they were nothing alike. Amp B sounded muffled. Which was the DRRI?

Edit: wait...the 52%...so amp A was the mustang? Sweet. Amp A sounds way better and clearer. They don't even sound remotely similar, and it is amp B that sounds like it's "under water" compared to amp A!!!

I have an M4 v1 and love it. I like when I see stuff like this that supports my love.

2nd edit: listened again. To be fair, it might be a question of preference, and what's clear is that the 2nd amp has way more reverb, which is causing a tone that my ears hear as "muddy." I guess the point is that the reverb dial was exactly the same on both amps? Because the mustang's reverb certainly can be turned up way higher and in this clip it's like the reverb was on 1.5 or so (which is how I like it; I'm no Dick Dale).


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:02 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 739
Um... I said.....the mustang clearly sounded better.

Right?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:18 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 739
is anybody here? good lord


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:51 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
Her Wanna wrote:
Um... I said.....the mustang clearly sounded better.

Right?


Right.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:52 am
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Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
Her Wanna wrote:
is anybody here? good lord


I am here; at least i think i am. :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Amps vs. Tube Amps vs. VG-99
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:20 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:27 am
Posts: 396
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_qmu9CYT4Q

Check the tone of my guitar here.

Amps in studio while I was recording: Fender Mustang IV, Fender Twin Reverb '82 (I think it was from that year - 60W tube amp) and a 7-watt tube Fender amp (can't remember which one exactly).

Guitars used: Fender Strat '72 for most of the song and Gibson Limited WB Studio, USA, 2012 for solo.

Guess which amp did I record with :)

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