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Post subject: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:08 pm
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I just purchased 2 M3's yesterday and set them up for a gig tomorrow. I wanted them to play through the PA and I used the method suggested in another thread here about taking the effect loop 'sends' and running them into the FOH board. It was stated that this is essentially a line out and it would include cab sims etc. Well, I did just that and the results were AWEFUL.
Now, to be clear, I'm not bashing the amps. LOVE the tones I'm getting and found several usable patches that I reorganized, to be easy to call up on the fly. I'm bummed because I really wanted to use a direct connection to the board. i ended up having to abandon that idea, and dangle mics in front of them. They sound great mic'd I just hate having MORE mics on stage.
Is anyone having sucess with this? I fiddled with input gains, set low on my mackie board, and tried different volume levels from the amp, most everything ended up sounding like a distorted overdriven mess.
Suggestions?

-Todd-


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:26 pm
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Your board's input trim is too high. You did not say which Mackie board you have but most of them have a PFL (Pre Fader Level) button which will give you the tone before it hits the board's pre amp. The PFL is what you are sending into the Board. If that is distorted then you are overdriving the boards input preamp. Back off the Mustangs Volume (not the Master Volume - that is only for the amp's output).

If your tone is good going through the PFL then your board's input Trim knob is too high, back off. When you are set up correctly, the PFL, the channel level for your guitar input and the Master level should all be -3db on the meters.

Look at each stage of the signal through the board to make sure you are not clipping the signal at any spot. Double check that every "EQ" knob is correct. Usually you will start at half way on all frequencies and then TAKE AWAY (lower) the frequencies beside the frequescy you want to increase.

The number one problem with "distortion" from a board is the sound guy trying to get more Bass, or Mid or High buy turning that frequency UP. The right way is to turn the Mid and High down to get more bass. That is true for Mid or High also.

The thing to remember is that when you boost any frequency you are adding "volume" to that frequency. So if you are sending a 0db signal to start with - you have just overdriven the preamp and are beginning to introduce distortion.

Always adjust the frequencity by lowering the others - not raising the one you want to adjust.

Using the FX outs will work great when the signal is "normalized". It just takes a few tries to get it right and every board is a little different.


If that dones not help let me know.

Bo


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:05 am
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Very, very nicely put, Bo. I've run sound for all my bands for 40 years and I couldn't have said it better. :) When it comes to running sound, most people just don't get it.

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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:53 pm
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If Gary's excellent suggestions still don't work on your board, a simple attenuator is easy to build into a patch cord running between your amp and your board.


Gary Baker wrote:
Your board's input trim is too high. You did not say which Mackie board you have but most of them have a PFL (Pre Fader Level) button which will give you the tone before it hits the board's pre amp. The PFL is what you are sending into the Board. If that is distorted then you are overdriving the boards input preamp. Back off the Mustangs Volume (not the Master Volume - that is only for the amp's output).

If your tone is good going through the PFL then your board's input Trim knob is too high, back off. When you are set up correctly, the PFL, the channel level for your guitar input and the Master level should all be -3db on the meters.

Look at each stage of the signal through the board to make sure you are not clipping the signal at any spot. Double check that every "EQ" knob is correct. Usually you will start at half way on all frequencies and then TAKE AWAY (lower) the frequencies beside the frequescy you want to increase.

The number one problem with "distortion" from a board is the sound guy trying to get more Bass, or Mid or High buy turning that frequency UP. The right way is to turn the Mid and High down to get more bass. That is true for Mid or High also.

The thing to remember is that when you boost any frequency you are adding "volume" to that frequency. So if you are sending a 0db signal to start with - you have just overdriven the preamp and are beginning to introduce distortion.

Always adjust the frequencity by lowering the others - not raising the one you want to adjust.

Using the FX outs will work great when the signal is "normalized". It just takes a few tries to get it right and every board is a little different.


If that dones not help let me know.

Bo

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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:17 pm
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Bo, I appreciate the tips, but my post was made in haste, because I was in mid setup before the gig and I was looking for input from people that had used the amp as suggested by Leon. I quickly mentioned that I had already been through inputs on the board (trims) volume on the amp (not master) and that I was getting poor quality sound.
I am as intimately familiar with FOH sound, and EQ'ing and the 'turn stuff down' instead of turning up method as you are.
So, now that my gig is over, and I mic'd each amp, and they sounded fantastic BTW... I'm sitting here now in my practice studio, and connected my M3 to a Yamaha 1604 board and output to JBL EON 300 watt floor monitors. The sound that I'm getting is nearly the same as I was getting at the venue, and I'll see if I can explain it better than I did previously by simply saying 'distorted'.
I can get a good 'clean' sound. A Twin, DRRI etc, sound good clean. As soon as you use anything with a distorted tone, or any drive, the 'distorted' sound is VERY brittle and fizzy and sounds similar to overdriving the board inputs.
So a couple things. First, I'm not bitching or complaining, I'm discussing my personal experience with this method of connectivity. Second, I realize that this circuit is an effects loop and isn't really designed for Direct out, even though it has been suggested that it could be used as such.
My thoughts on this entire subject are: The M1 and M2 are targeted mostly at being home practice amps, with limited abilities as live performance pieces, HOWEVER The M3 and above are fully capable gigging rigs with advanced controlability (4 button switch etc.) and more features. These are great sounding amps with TONS of great features. With all of the things that this series of amps do, It would be VERY desirable to have a dedicated, properly voiced Direct out to make it easy to connect the Mustang to the FOH. Using the headphone out ( which disconnects the speaker and is undesirable in live performance as you want to use the amp as a monitor ) just isn't a good solution.
Its hard for me to exactly illustrate what the problem is BUT I can say this: The Mustangs sound amazing. When you mic them through the FOH they continue to sound amazing. When you try to use them direct they sound NOT amazing.
Suggestions? perhaps a possible update?

-Todd-


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:00 pm
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H8Monday wrote:
Suggestions?

You could try to add a simple "line out" to the amp. Essentially, your just coming of of the speaker with a modified impedance.

You'll find a PDF about the simple mod on this page at singlecoil.com.

You could use a piece of MDF to replace the back and doubled "arcless" connectors from Radio Shack so that it is completely reversible (and undetectable).


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:25 pm
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Hi Todd, Glad you made it through your set . . . . . so you have 50% of your answer. It's not the amp (it sounds great mic'ed) and it is not the settings on the board (same issue with two different boards.

So my next suggestion is that the patch(s) you are using are not EQed for FOH. A "live" patch, especially with a LOT of distortion, (the good kind) will sometimes not work as a line to FOH. Just like a headphone patch will sound "weak" when played live.

So I'd first try going into FUSE software. Bring up a "high volume" high distortion" patch. Go to the "Advanced Settings Button" for that amp and you should see a "Master Volume" knob on the far left. This is a programmable "master volume" that acts more like an attenuator for this patch only!

I did not find a single factory patch that I felt would work as a FOH patch - they build them so that they sound great live in the music store!!

Turn this High distortion patch down using this "Master Volume knob" on the Advanced Settings page some and check the patch again through the FOH (monitors"). Still not right - turn down a little more. Remember, the live volume is going to come from the FOH, you just want a "sweet tone" comming from the amp's line out (FX out).

Still not so good? Start adjusting your EQ settings to see if you can now get to the same tone you have when playing live through the amp - that's the goal.

By the way - if I offended you by going "basic" on the suggestions in my first post - my appologizes - my answers are ment for ALL the forum members and many of them have not had the years of trial-and-error (experience?) that we have. So I usually "start at the beginning and end at the end" (quote: Alice in Wonderland)

When I am building patches I have always found that I need two different sets of the same patches. One set for "live" and another for "recording (FOH). That's why I try to mic when the "sound guy's" will let me - it's just more fun!! :lol:

Good luck in finding the right formula.

Bo


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:01 pm
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So I'm curious. Any of you guys try the effects loop send into a board yet?
What were YOUR results?

-Todd-


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:57 pm
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Sounds to me like you need some kind of direct box that incorporates speaker simulation (filtering), like these...

http://www.zzounds.com/item--HUKRBCLASSIC

http://www.pedalspluseffectswarehouse.com/Palmer_PDI_09_The_Junction_Speaker_Simulator_p/plmr-pdi09.htm

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JDX/

SansAmp offers a number of products that might work. Even some Digitech stomp boxes have a second, speaker-emulated output (like the Bad Monkey, for example) designed to filter out that nasty high-end buzziness that's common when going direct.

The headphone output supposedly incorporates speaker emulation - and I agree, it's unfortunate that it defeats the amp's speaker when in use. I imagine that it might be just a simple mod to tap into that signal (without defeating the speaker) at the headphone jack, and run it to an XLR or 1/4" jack one would drill/mount to the amp's chassis. I may try that if I end up keeping this amp for gigging...

It also might be a simple thing to modify the headphone jack so it does not defeat the speaker - making the jack usable for both direct FOH and stage monitoring.


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:12 pm
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Moat wrote:
The headphone output supposedly incorporates speaker emulation - and I agree, it's unfortunate that it defeats the amp's speaker when in use. I imagine that it might be just a simple mod to tap into that signal (without defeating the speaker) at the headphone jack, and run it to an XLR or 1/4" jack one would drill/mount to the amp's chassis. I may try that if I end up keeping this amp for gigging...

It also might be a simple thing to modify the headphone jack so it does not defeat the speaker - making the jack usable for both direct FOH and stage monitoring.


It would be awesome if the next rev of the Mustangs included 1/4" headphone jacks and a speaker on/off switch (or headphone cutoff on/off switch).

I wouldn't try using the 3.5mm headphone jack on a stage--I already managed to break one at home in front of my computer.

I'm a bit surprised the Mustang's cabinet simulation is not applied to its effects output. For some reason I thought it would be.

PITA


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:41 pm
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I haven't tried it but the M3 manual says that the headphone output is also a line out, so that would be the right output to plug into a mixing board. Strange connections, but that should do it.

I don't know how in the world the output impedance could work both for headphones and as a line out, but I'm an old timer when it comes to electronics. I'd guess that the Fender engineers know what they're doing.

Can an output be both stereo or balanced? Guess so....


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:03 pm
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Just curious... does anyone have experience with using the balanced (XLR) line-outs to a PA instead of the effects loop out? One would think that it would work fine with balanced line-outs, all else being equal...

Thanks,

Jeff


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:26 pm
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Quote:
I'm a bit surprised the Mustang's cabinet simulation is not applied to its effects output. For some reason I thought it would be

On the V2 amps, the fx-loop can be positioned either before or after the cab emulation. See here:
http://support.fender.com/manuals/guita ... tsLoop.pdf

On the V1 amps, the fx loop is in a fixed position in the chain. My understanding is that the fx loop is after ALL the DSP - that is, after the cab simulation (because there is only one DSP stage in those amps; after the DSP the sound is converted back to analogue, then sent to the fx loop followed by the power amp; there is no further DSP after the fx loop in which cab simulation could be applied).

Of course, the fx loop on a non-modelling amp is by definition before the speaker cabs, and thus any sound colouration the cab provides comes after the fx loop. So the Mustang V1 amps are actually back-to-front in that regard. The V2 amps give you the choice.

As to the OP's question, I agree with Gary Baker's last post - if some presets are fine and others not, it sounds like the presets that are distorting simply have too high an output level. Also, the OP doesn't say whether it's a V1 or V2 amp; if it were a V2 amp the XLR outputs may be a better choice than the fx-send. The V1 amps of course don't have XLR outputs.


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:31 am
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I've used the stereo XLR line outs on my Mustang 3 V2 and they sound fine. In fact, after the new firmware update, the reverb is even stereo!


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Post subject: Re: Gigging with M3's HORRIBLE FOH using effects out
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:24 pm
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Gary Baker wrote:
Hi Todd, Glad you made it through your set . . . . . so you have 50% of your answer. It's not the amp (it sounds great mic'ed) and it is not the settings on the board (same issue with two different boards.

So my next suggestion is that the patch(s) you are using are not EQed for FOH. A "live" patch, especially with a LOT of distortion, (the good kind) will sometimes not work as a line to FOH. Just like a headphone patch will sound "weak" when played live.

So I'd first try going into FUSE software. Bring up a "high volume" high distortion" patch. Go to the "Advanced Settings Button" for that amp and you should see a "Master Volume" knob on the far left. This is a programmable "master volume" that acts more like an attenuator for this patch only!

I did not find a single factory patch that I felt would work as a FOH patch - they build them so that they sound great live in the music store!!

Turn this High distortion patch down using this "Master Volume knob" on the Advanced Settings page some and check the patch again through the FOH (monitors"). Still not right - turn down a little more. Remember, the live volume is going to come from the FOH, you just want a "sweet tone" comming from the amp's line out (FX out).

Still not so good? Start adjusting your EQ settings to see if you can now get to the same tone you have when playing live through the amp - that's the goal.

By the way - if I offended you by going "basic" on the suggestions in my first post - my appologizes - my answers are ment for ALL the forum members and many of them have not had the years of trial-and-error (experience?) that we have. So I usually "start at the beginning and end at the end" (quote: Alice in Wonderland)

When I am building patches I have always found that I need two different sets of the same patches. One set for "live" and another for "recording (FOH). That's why I try to mic when the "sound guy's" will let me - it's just more fun!! :lol:

Good luck in finding the right formula.

Bo

Good stuff Bo. :wink:

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