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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:57 pm
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Yes, I too have noticed this. However, it's nothing new in the digital modeling world. There is a true limitation in the EPROMS that are used to create these programs. There is a reason that an Ax-FX cost almost 10 times what a Mustang does.

What I have noticed is that it is much more pronounced on the cleaner sounding amps such as Twin Reverb or Princeton or a "un-cranked" Champ. AND when using hummbucking PUPs. Single coil PUPs don't seem to be as noticable.

Must of that low end "growl" fizz or what ever you want to call it occurs at lower volumes in the lower frequencies on the tail end. Usually in the last 3 to 4 seconds of the last note as it decays. It's like there is another amp running distortion in another room.

When playing Jazz, or clean Fusion it can be quite annoying. I think we are pretty much stuck with this until the cost of EPROMS comes down to the point that they are viable in $400 and under equipment.

If you want studio recording quality this is not the amp for you. If you want a great little home studio or small giging amp, it brings a lot of value to the table.

One last comment. You can play with the "Bias" adjustment on the second page of an amps set up and eliminate a little of the grind - but you will need to adjust your EQ to get back to the tone you had before.

Good luck, Bo


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:19 pm
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Gary Baker wrote:
... There is a true limitation in the EPROMS that are used to create these programs. There is a reason that an Ax-FX cost almost 10 times what a Mustang does. ...


Hi Gary. Thanks for joining the discussion. Very interesting comments.

One thing though : I've used or still use other modelers like the Fender Cyber-Deluxe, Vox AD30VT, Vox Tonelab, Line 6 Pod and also those in Garage Band, Logic, Pro Tools etc. and never ever had that problem with none of these.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:44 pm
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I doubt this has anything to do with EPROMs (which would most likely be flash memory nowadays, and anyway, it's just storage for firmware). Likewise regarding processing power. It is possible the specific algorithms used are a compromise, but I don't think there's anything inherent that would necessarily lead to this type of artifacts (or any other specific artifacts).


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:54 pm
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stratquebec wrote:
Gary Baker wrote:
... There is a true limitation in the EPROMS that are used to create these programs. There is a reason that an Ax-FX cost almost 10 times what a Mustang does. ...


Hi Gary. Thanks for joining the discussion. Very interesting comments.

One thing though : I've used or still use other modelers like the Fender Cyber-Deluxe, Vox AD30VT, Vox Tonelab, Line 6 Pod and also those in Garage Band, Logic, Pro Tools etc. and never ever had that problem with none of these.


And how much did those units cost new?? My Mustand V head was $299 USD. The Vox ToneLab SE, LE, AD30VTX and L6 PodXT Live that I have had were all $499 and UP new. A few were over $800.

The Fender Cyber-Twin I had (and the Cyber-Delux you have) are a Hybrid amp. As such they have "real tubes" in the power output section and a SS front end. The distortion we are hearing is from the lack of a "real" power output transformer. Which the Fender Cyber series has (had).

It is my belief, although I can not say for certain; that the sampeling rate of the DSP chip they have chosen to use is of a rate that leaves large "holes" in the sine wave as it increases in length. A low frequency wave is much longer between cycles than a mid or high frequency wave. Therefore, what you get at low frequencies are dropouts or "gaps" in the signal.

This translates to our ears as "fizz", distortion, or a grinding of the tone. High end SS EPROM DSP chips can do tighter sampeling (more samples per second) and some do "oversampeling" which can "fill in the holes and smooth out the signal, thus producing a more "true" tone.

I doubt that there is anything that Fender can do to change this issue short of switching to a higher cost DSP chip. Which would change the retail price point that they have choosen.

I guess we will just wait and see. If not an EPROM issue a DSP chip issue for certain in my book.

Bo


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:09 pm
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mpr wrote:
I doubt this has anything to do with EPROMs (which would most likely be flash memory nowadays, and anyway, it's just storage for firmware). Likewise regarding processing power. It is possible the specific algorithms used are a compromise, but I don't think there's anything inherent that would necessarily lead to this type of artifacts (or any other specific artifacts).



Could be, mpr.

I'll stick by my thought of a lower sampling rate as the issue. Can't seem to find that spec anywhere on Fender's site or brochures. That leads me to think it not something that they wish to draw attention too.

This is the only thing I can think of since the Mid and high freqs are great and as long as sufficient tone is input, any "drop outs" are masked and it is only when there is sufficient "space and volume" in the low frequencys this issue will arise.

You can get this to happen on an Audio Card by setting the "latency" setting very low. Not exactly the same sound but headed in that direction - which is, inreality a "drop out" issue.

Bo


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:54 am
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Gary Baker wrote:
The Vox ToneLab SE, LE, AD30VTX and L6 PodXT Live that I have had were all $499 and UP new. A few were over $800.
Just a precision. I'm talking about Vox Tonelab desktop , not Se or Le, AD30VT, not VTX, POD not PODXT, but anyway all use a tube so the comparison is so so.

Gary Baker wrote:
The Fender Cyber-Twin I had (and the Cyber-Delux you have) are a Hybrid amp.
Just to point out that the Cyber-Deluxe has no tubes. I really enjoyed that amp, so much that I started a yahoo group about it and this group is still alive and well. http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Deluxe/?m=0

Gary Baker wrote:
I doubt that there is anything that Fender can do to change this issue short of switching to a higher cost DSP chip. Which would change the retail price point that they have choosen.
Yep, I think too that the actual Mustangs will all carry that little imperfection and I think too that very few users will complain about it. Maybe the next generation, if ever there is, will be better but more expansive as you pointed out.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:19 pm
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Oh well, my bad on the Cyber-Deluxe. Had no idea it was a different schematic from the Cyber-Twin. That explains the difference in weight to some degree. It seems that one is a Hybrid Amp and the other a pure DSP amp.

I never palyed a C-Dlx but I bet it is a sweet thing. Maybe I'll have to keep an eye out for a used one . . . . . ( : ........

Bo


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:40 am
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Hi,
The tail-off bass distortion is more likely due to the sampling rate of the input Sample circuit The same thing happens with Midi guitars like the Casio MG510 or maybe the Fender midi pickup retrofit. The treble notes are sampled Ok because the frequency is much higher and bass notes are very low frequency so the sampler circuit does'nt have enough time to properly sample as the note decays, hence the fuzzy tail off. I noticed this also when using a Zoom GFX7 pedal but when I upgraded to the Zoom G2.1u which has a 24bit 96 khz sampling rate, all the tail off problems disappeared !
Wonder what the Mustang III 's sampling/bit-rate specifications are ? Could be hard to correct this with a firmware update - maybe a component change only - in the next generation. Hope I'm wrong about this issue - will email Fender Support tech.
By the way, the tail-off is less noticeable with British 60's than Basic Fender cleans.
Been here in Dublin/Ireland since the late '50s as a gitter picker and electronics tech.
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:09 am
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jimfender wrote:
Hi,
... Could be hard to correct this with a firmware update - maybe a component change only - in the next generation. Hope I'm wrong about this issue ...


Um... I would think you're right all the way Sir. I take is issue as part of the "nature of the beast". We must not forget and always keep in mind how low priced those modelers are. My Mustang I is a keeper despite this little issue.

I hope Fender will continue to tweak the first generation Mustangs amps, but I hope too to see a more expansive improved new generation coming up in the future.

I just love my little Mustang I. Still can't beleive it's a 8" speaker in there 'cause it sounds HUGE!

Cheers!


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:15 pm
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Hi Stratquebec,
Yeh, well this drawback is overwhelmed by the good parts, and, as with all
things, we're always looking for the catch - what is it with us ? . Compared with the
Cyber range the price is minimal. Still, we can't let Fender of the hook. The ad says
" High Speed, Amped Up and Loud "
Believe ! They said it. Of course they're goin' to correct it.
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:40 am
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Hi,
Emailed Fender the other day and got a reply that they-Customer Support- had not
heard anything about the issues or the Forum chatter re same !!!!!!!!!!! and that this
is the first they've heard of it - !
But they will check with the Tech. Dept. (who are reported on this Forum to be working on it).
Believe ............
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:46 am
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jimfender wrote:
Hi,
Emailed Fender the other day and got a reply that they-Customer Support- had not
heard anything about the issues or the Forum chatter re same !!!!!!!!!!! and that this
is the first they've heard of it - !
But they will check with the Tech. Dept. (who are reported on this Forum to be working on it).
Believe ............
Jim


Come on Loren, say something, please. We know that you read this forum from time to time.
I would really like if this issue is fixed even if I had to sacrifice two effects slots so that those two DSPs can help main processor to achieve that famous Fender cleeean tone.
Who needs more than two effects anyway :wink:

ok, now let's get serious (this sounds like Zappa)
Could someone from Fender please respond and give any hint whether this is fixable or not, or you don't know yet? Any answer would be appreciated.

just to let you know, I really love my Mustang I, but I might love it even more :)


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:07 pm
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@jimfender

Say what? Customer Service told ya they hadn't heard of the problem? To be blunt ... that's BS. Maybe the particular CS guy that replied to you doesn't know about it ... but the Fender Technology Support Lab sure as heck does DOES!

Based on the discussion in the "Distortion on Bass Tones at Low Volume" thread ... I sent Loren an email regarding the problem on 1/13/2011. I received the following reply from Loren dated 1/14/2011 Subject: Distortion on Clean Tones.

"Hi Kenton,

After reading this email and the related forum thread, we're now doing some testing regarding this matter. We'll have something to report soon. In the meantime, if you notice any other behavior that seems out of the ordinary, please let us know. Thanks.

Best Regards,
___________________________________________
Loren Howard
Technology Support Lab
Fender Musical Instruments Corporation
8860 East Chaparral Road, Suite 100
Scottsdale, AZ 85250
480-596-7195"

BTW ... there has been some conjecture in this forum regarding the cause of the problem. Readers should take such opinions with a grain of salt ... the opinions may be right or wrong ... but the fact is ... FENDER is the only one who can diagnose the cause ... and other than the reply from Loren posted above ... FENDER ain't said nothin' that I know of.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:09 am
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thanks KenB for posting Loren's reply. That's all I needed to hear. Hope they will be able to do something about this.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:29 am
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Hi KenB,

Right on. Good to hear there's some notice being taken by Fender with the issue.
Believe !!!!

Jim


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