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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:13 pm
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Any hope of this fixable in firmware since it seems to be in the power amp portion?


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:58 pm
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I'm having the same issue. I noticed it last week and then found this thread. I have applied the latest firmware. For easy testing I switch to the 57 Champ preset and set the gain all the way down for as clean as sound as possible. I hit a note and it comes through along with the buzz. It's very noticeable. I even tried lowering the volume and bumped up the master volume in case it was clipping from the volume being maxed out and got the same thing.

While some people mention it being on lower end notes, I'm seeing it everywhere. I've tested it with both single coils and humbuckers and got the same results. As people have said, it isn't there on headphones.

This sucks. I'm tempted to return this amp as I just purchased it a couple weeks ago.

If it ends up that firmware won't fix this and I go past the store return window, I hope Fender will accept a return as this is unacceptable. A clean tone needs to be clean.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:03 am
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Just purchased the M3 last week, updated to the latest version of firmware...still having the same problem on clean presets.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:22 am
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Maybe the buzzing that you hear is from the speaker or cabinet vibrations?if you do not hear buzz from the headphone output i would check your amps speaker and cabinet for resonance problems(tighten down all speaker and cabinet screws),i have the mustang I and V and i do not hear the buzz with my amps.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:51 am
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I've tried everything people said to try to get the fizz, buzzing effect, tailend distortion and i do not hear it with my MIII and my Fender '52 AVRI Tele and my MIJ 88 Fender Strat. I do not have a humbucker guitar here at this time.

hooch1 are you the same person at TDPRI?


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:22 pm
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Probably so.

In defense of the amp, I think I was able to EQ the buzz out of the default '65 Deluxe setting by cranking down the gain, tone down the mids, and a little less on the volume. I had cranked down the gain with no affect but for some reason I think this combination might have worked. Sounds better to my ears anyway.

BTW, I can get it easily with my std Amr Tele bridge pickup with the volume pot at full using the default 65' setting. Part of my posting reason is to figure out if I just got a bad one or if this is normal.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:35 am
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fwiw, i have a new mustang III and am super-bummed that the fizzy distortion bug exists in my amp...

i've updated the firmware to the latest (1.6.4) and the amp is still essentially unusable over a wide-variety of presets/models for anything that requires a light touch, long decay, artifact-free sound. truly disappointing as i loved the ideas of these amps and, originally upon demo-ing them and taking one home for a night, thought they were hitting the mark as far as features/price went.

unfortunately as i've tried to use the amp for more than just the "fun factor" - the first hour or so of whipping through the presets and tweaking things was really fun and exciting and lots of seeds of "ooooh, i can hear that tone for this recording project" were planted - it's apparent that the amp just doesn't have it's tone-generation circuitry ironed out.

i'm not a noob and have tried a number of different approaches to try to find a suitable compromise that ends with me keeping the amp...varying volumes, headphone-direct recording, mic-ing the speaker, tweaking eq, eliminating effects, etc. all nets the same result. the fizzy nasty crap at the tail-end of many of the models is there plain and simple.

it's weird cuz i play on 40-50 year old fender heads/amps and, of course, they certainly have noise of their own (snaps, pops, buzzes here and there, etc.) but it's something that i can not only live with but believe that it helps add character to each of the old tube amps. however, this digital garbage is entirely a sound(s) that i *cannot* live with.

i'm still not sure what to do - i don't feel right taking the amp back to my local store cuz it's not their problem that fender can't get this right. not sure that i can justify keeping the amp when it turns out to do very little of what i'd hoped to use it for (in-home practice, recording - direct and/or mic-ed, computer interface) especially when it drives me nuts that the fizzy junk is still there - lurking under the sound.

the mustang could be a great line if this single issue was totally and completely fixed. the overall modeling of the fender clean amps is really nice and the effects are usable for the most part. i really want to like and live with this amp but i'm afraid it's going to head on down the road....

also, fwiw, the celestion speaker in the combos sounds ok for the thump and lower end of the spectrum but, holy earfryer, they are wicked bright if listened to or mic-ed straight on.

my advice if you are contemplating buying a mustang is to listen very closely to all the different ways you'd like to use the amp. it's possible that you could easily find yourself able to live with the fizz/buzz/weird modulation that i cannot.

good luck!


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:50 am
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Hi Jray,

Sounds like you thought you were getting somethin' for nothin' .
If it was a rotten can o' beans you'd have no problem bringin' it back
to the store.
Good luck.

Jim


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:02 pm
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@jimfdr: not sure what you are implying...

what did i think i was getting for nothing? a usable set of presets that range from clean to dirty? well, i sorta paid for that so i did, indeed, expect to get it...

clean sounds from the brand that defined "clean tube sounds" (in my mind, at least) that really sound clean? yep, hoped to have them, too...

if it turns out that the amp can't deliver on what it says it can, is that really a product of my expectations or the fact that, technically, the amp simply can't do what it should? i think the latter...

thanks for your input.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:51 pm
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Hey,

It's just a good portable modelling amp, not a whole studio setup.
The outputs for recording etc. are standard for modern gear, no more.
I just use it for playing live, unmiked, and find it does the job well - like
most other users. It's loud and clean and I can dirty it up myself if I want.
I don't expect a lot more - I've found out how to get under the hood and
change things that don't suit my style, like no other setup I've used.
Sound distortion has been a problem in valve amps, since the early 60's -
just try miking up one of those babies ! The Mustang, perhaps, is maybe a
little too sensitive when sampling the input signal. Just back off the Gains
and Volumes and Sags etc. and up the Master to balance your output.
Read Rockats reviews and comments in other Posts -
" 4 Button Footswitch-cost Queried ", and " Fender Mustang III - First Impressions"
Tame the beast.

Good luck
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 1:15 pm
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jray wrote:
the mustang could be a great line if this single issue was totally and completely fixed.

I think it's amazing that you would even say that. Even the axefx has this problem:
Read "Digital Fizz"
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=857762

If I had a nickel for every time someone said "I hear fizz" when talking about pedals, tube amps, guitars, etc, I'd be able to retire.

BTW, are you the same jray that has an account over at The Gear Page?

Bottom line, if you don't like the amp get rid of it ASAP.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:55 pm
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always great to share in discussion...

just to be clear, the "fizz" that i'm (and it appears many others) am talking about is not the normal product of introducing a gain stage to a circuit (like pedals, etc. do). if you aren't clear on what the issue is, then perhaps your amp doesn't have the problem...

i will get rid of the amp if it won't work out for me - that's not really the issue at hand. i understand that this amp isn't a "whole studio setup" - it's an amp. i do know how to "get under the hood" and have been tweaking since i brought it home - i mentioned that i've tried a variety of things to resolve this which certainly included modifying presets. still the noisy noise persists...

@jimfdr: that's cool that you can use the amp in your preferred manner. it shouldn't be hard to realize that i would like to do the same - mine happens to include recording but the amp is proving to be a challenge to making that happen. you can chalk that up to "well, it's a bargain - what do you expect?" but i have plenty of other "bargain" stuff that works great without having to make that same compromise.

as for mic-ing up old valve amps, i do. all the time. and, yes, they can be noisy but it's nothing even remotely close to the the problem being discussed here as it pertains to some/many mustangs. again, maybe your amp is not affected as others are.

@lesbeat: i hear ya - if i had a nickel for every time people think one thing is something else, i'd be able to retire with ya ;-) in this case, the "fizz" of pedals being connected together or of a high-gain channel is not at all what i'm talking about. i believe you're referring more to the noise floor than to the specific tail-end distortion and digital weirdness that some (mine for sure) mustangs exhibit. as opposed to noise or "fizz" that is present all the time (like noise floor), this problem exists only when the note/chord being played is held and allowed to fade. the presets can be crystal clear (whether "clean" or "dirty") when sitting idle or playing and the fading/tail-end glitching will still be present.

while it is possible to reduce some of the drastic-ness of the glitching by disabling some effects or massively eq-ing, doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of things? i'm sure fender would like to have their amps perform as designed but they're not quite there is some regards to this line of amps. my opinion of course...ymmv...

(also, i don't believe i'm the same jray that you're asking about)


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:32 pm
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The 'fizzy' problem you're all hearing, called aliasing, is common with all modeling amps at this price point. Just look in on the Vox forum and read similar discussions on the Valvetronix VT+.

The problem is not firmware - it's not the modeling algorithms. It's the quality of components used in all amps at this price point. I've only heard and played one modeling amp that didn't have this issue, and which is still IMHO the best modeling amp ever made that sounded, felt & responded the closest to an all-valve amp - and that's the German built Hughes & Kettner Zentera. Made with top quality components & built like a tank, the amp used two Sharc 32 point processors. No longer made, rarely sold second-hand because they were bought by pro-players who keep hold of them, these amps were top professional quality. But at £2,500 for the 2x12" combo, including the Z-Stageboard, that's well over TEN TIMES THE COST OF THE MUSTANG THREE!!

So, when you consider what you're getting for less than a 10th of the cost of the Zentera, in any of these budget priced amps - Fender Mustang, Vox Valvetronix+, Laney Prism, Peavey Vypyr etc, you have to accept some tonal/functionality compromises in exchange for all the good things you've got.

Modeling amps aren't for everyone - & certainly not valve or audiofile tone purists. But they will fit the needs of most players and provide an excellent 'in one box' solution for most bedroom, amateur & even semi-pro players that need portability, convenience, low running costs, tonal versatility, built in FX, patch switchability, headphones etc. They're not perfect and the old adage 'you can't please all the people all the time' applies.

But the same can be said of all-valve amps too that have different issues. They're too loud to use at bedroom volumes and only really sound good when the power-tubes are cranked. They're big and heavy, and need a lot of maintenance which costs money. A new set of tubes in a typical amp (typically needed every 12-24 mths depending on how much you play it) will set you back at least £100; a service £50-100 depending on what needs replacing (caps etc). You might get reverb and maybe tremolo but all other effects you'll have to buy yourself and cart round with you. They have no headphone sockets for late night practice because you need a speaker load.

And they have tonal problems of their own eg ghost notes are common in AC30's, and hum at low volumes is a big problem with may valve rigs. Have a read on the Vox forum and the Fender valve amp sections here to learn about the problems folk face with their valve and even very expensive handwired amps!! And as for older vintage amps - be prepared to invest huge amounts of time & money in maintaining them with loving care and finding authentic replacement components that cost a fortune - for an amp that is probably noisier and less flexible than its modern counterpart!

So take it from an expert in modeling amps guys & someone with a LOT of experience with valve amps too - the Mustangs sound good, are nicely designed, represent terrific value for money and are one of the best in their class. Plus you get a 5 year warranty from Fender!! But if they don't suit you, then get something else that does-but at this price point just make sure that whatever rig you buy, your expectations are reasonable.

I'm still undecided about the M III - there are pro's & cons - at the end of the day, each of us has to make the call on which rig is the best compromise to fit in with most of what we need - & we ALL have to compromise, especially at this price point. I may ultimately go for the 15w all-valve Laney Cub 12R BUT it's a single channel amp with no separate distortion channel, so I won't get the flexibility of the M III - plus I'll have higher maintenance costs & I'll have to use my pedalboard or Tonelab ST with it, and it won't be suitable for larger gigs (unless I mike it up).

You won't find perfection in any amp, but good luck in looking for it and please let me know when you find it & I'll buy two!

Be grateful for the awesome choices you've got available to you because when I started there was bugger all! :(

Peace

Rich :wink:

_________________
"I started out with nothing ...and I've still got most of it left!" (Seasick Steve)


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:51 pm
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People keep referring to this as "tail end distortion" but when I plug my Epi LP into any clean model, I hear it through the whole note even with the gain at 1.

My notes I made earlier about getting close to dialing it out was with my Tele and Strat but I cannot come close with my LP when I'm playing in my quiet environment at night.

Thats what makes me think I may have got a bad one.


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Post subject: Re: Obnoxius tail end distortion
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:32 am
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@hooch1

Although the thread is titled "Obnoxious Tail End Distortion" ... it is merely an artifact of how the problem was initially described when the thread was started. Depending on the models used and the users ability to listen ... different users have described it differently. As to my case ... I have an MII ... and I can hear the distortion on all strings ... from attack to complete decay.

I don't think you got a bad one ... I think you got a normal one.

KenB


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