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Post subject: Speaker used in the Mustang II
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:00 pm
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Edtit: After getting FUSE running on my laptop (a little laggy but useable), I got to work with the speaker emulations some more, and I think I can dial in what I need: it's a keeper for practice, rehearsal and jams!

Original Post:
What are the specs on the speaker in the Mustang II?
They're given as 1-12" Fender® Special Design Speaker, 8 ohms.

Using a decent set of headphone/and or decent Klipsh near-field monitors, I'm hearing a really huge disparity between the amp's "live" sound and the monitored output (which is supposed to be speaker-emulated).
Changing the speaker/cabinet makes a large difference to the "live" sound, which is pretty cool, maybe I can find something here to make the stock speaker sound better.

Although this is the usual state of affairs with any amp with a headphone output, I'm wondering what a speaker upgrade/changeout would sound like in this amp. It's got decent enough output for a very small venue/rehearsal; and I'm pretty sure the sound could be improved with a speaker upgrade.

AND another thing, someone please tell me how to setup a distortion followed by a compressor stomp box. Apparently, it ain't happenin.

Les

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Post subject:
Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:28 pm
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Hi, if a compressor stompbox is not part of the onboard fx, or part
of 'hidden fx' only accessible from FUSE, Then you'lll need to use the
Fender Amplitube LE, and experiment with the signal you send it from the
Mustang, and its included capabilities (which are excellent)

In addition, a free app called CamelCrusher is great for compressor/distortions, a favourite for many.

http://www.camelaudio.com/demos.php#demo_id30

(I love daisychaining 3 of these)

This would be loaded into Ableton Lite, or other vst host, along with Amplitube, as desired. The standard path for plugins is

C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VstPlugins or the installer default in odd cases

Some vst hosts require their scanning procedure to be run, to find and approve of plugins first.
Cheers


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:36 pm
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From what I've read the Fender Special Design Speaker, 8 ohm is
really an Eminence Legend 1258, 8 ohm, 75 watt that has American growl, but with sparkle, definition and edgy top-end. Very vintage! :D

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Eminence The Wizard vs Stock Mustang II Speaker Shootout http://arttux.com/Fender-Mustang-II-Eminence-Wizard-Speaker-Swap/


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:36 pm
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aLinux wrote:
From what I've read the Fender Special Design Speaker, 8 ohm is
really an Eminence Legend 1258, 8 ohm, 75 watt that has American growl, but with sparkle, definition and edgy top-end. Very vintage! :D


I don't think so, modelers are meant to use FRFR speakers and it sounds like the Mustang II is very clear so this is probably what it has. It won't be perfectly FRFR, but it'll be close enough. That speaker has a huge bump from 1.5-5 K which would make it sound very bright, but also rolls off in the "real" treble, so it'll have that vintagey sort of sound, with modeling that'd be sound both nasaly and like a blanket was thrown over it.


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:06 pm
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The MII speaker as described by Fender is a 12" dual-cone "full range" speaker meaning it is a classic FRFR speaker with a built-in crossover. Has a relatively flat freq response. The exact opposite of a guitar speaker.

Of course, Fender has stuck a standard spikey Celestion guitar speaker into the MIII so that raises several interesting issues. Not the least of which is..."Huh???"

Now the correct answer to that on Fender's part is, "Oh yeah, we know that SOUNDS weird, but check this out: we have a special speaker compensation setting specifically for that speaker to match with it!"

Is that what they'll say? Naw. The modeled amp output will be the same as the other Mustangs. They'll just say, "Heck, we stuck it in there and it sounded awesome."

The real answer: It could handle 100 watts, and they got a big shipment of them dirt cheap. Reality is always tackier than fantasy.

The potential Big Downside to that? Players going "I don't know, that MIII just doesn't sound right. Kind of over-bright, brittle and fizzy. I like the I & II a lot better. They sound warmer and more balanced across all the models."

It could happen.


Last edited by Musicmaster2 on Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:18 pm
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These full range speakers handle keyboards, drum machines and synths pretty good.

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Post subject: So where...?
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:19 pm
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So where do I obtain, and what spkr do I get to use a 12 inch with a Mustang I?


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:15 pm
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oh OK .. Well, I was reading Google and see many Fender Tube Amps use these special design speakers so they must all be different ..cuz most were saying the Blues Jr. special design was in fact a Legen 125 .. but i guess MI/II's are some other special design .. a generic family name perhaps .. ... Crap i had the amp cranked to 8 lastnight .. good thing it didnt blow i wouldn't have known what to EXACT replace it with :wink:

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Eminence The Wizard vs Stock Mustang II Speaker Shootout http://arttux.com/Fender-Mustang-II-Eminence-Wizard-Speaker-Swap/


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:07 pm
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Not clear what's in the MI except it theoretically is a PA/Hi-Fi-style 8" speaker meaning one with a fairly flat freq response. They make 8" PA application speakers so that would be the way to go. The MI 8 is a one-way (single-cone), the MII 12" is a two-way (two cones).


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:30 am
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Well.. i love these speakers .. I guess if i ever blew mine..i could call fender and order a replacement ..but i was hoping they had them online ..cuz i was thinking of trying one in my tube amp only i'd need 16 ohm which they prolly dont have

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J. Hendrix / S.R.V. / E. Clapton / R. Hansen / F. Marino / B.B. King (now that's a neat six-pack) :)
Eminence The Wizard vs Stock Mustang II Speaker Shootout http://arttux.com/Fender-Mustang-II-Eminence-Wizard-Speaker-Swap/


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:21 am
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Gents,
Where did this "flat response full range" and "dual cone" stuff come from? If one of our websites (or a dealer) is saying this, I'll correct it. They are "regular" guitar speakers.

The Mustang I and II amps have what we call Fender Special Design speakers. This usually means we worked with the vendor to develop the right speaker for each amp, rather than buy an over-the-counter speaker like we sometimes do. This Fender tradition is about fifty years old.

The speakers we chose are designed to be as powerful as possible in a small box, while being versatile enough to do a good job with a wide variety of clean and dirty tones.

If you are a proud Mustang owner, I also thank you for your business. Enjoy.

Shane


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:55 am
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Shane Nicholas - Fender wrote:
Gents,
Where did this "flat response full range" and "dual cone" stuff come from? If one of our websites (or a dealer) is saying this, I'll correct it. They are "regular" guitar speakers.

The Mustang I and II amps have what we call Fender Special Design speakers. This usually means we worked with the vendor to develop the right speaker for each amp, rather than buy an over-the-counter speaker like we sometimes do. This Fender tradition is about fifty years old.

The speakers we chose are designed to be as powerful as possible in a small box, while being versatile enough to do a good job with a wide variety of clean and dirty tones.

If you are a proud Mustang owner, I also thank you for your business. Enjoy.

Shane


How can they be regular guitar speakers? If that was true, you'd be modelling a guitar speaker and running it through a guitar speaker. I know some cheap modeling amps do this but the Mustang sounded clearer to me when I tried it(though I didn't get to play around with it as much as I'd like).

Guitar speakers will cut or accentuate(essentially) certain frequencies. So if you try and model a 4x12 with Greenbacks, you're not getting a 4x12 with Greenbacks, since you may have a big upper mid spike. Cab models should only ever be run through a relatively flat response speaker. That doesn't mean they can't ever sound good through guitar speakers, but they will never be accurate and generally muddy. Some guitar speakers will be much better than others as they are closer to a flat response, just with a roll off in the highs so distorted sounds aren't too harsh, though these will still make a modeler sound a little more processed.

It's a bad idea using guitar speakers in modelling amps in general. It's not as if PA speakers are super duper costly, especially such low wattage ones, if anything they're produced en masse more than guitar speakers.


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:10 pm
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Electric Mistress wrote:
How can they be regular guitar speakers?


Note that he had regular in quotes, meaning that regular was being used loosely. I took what Shane said to mean (and I hate using the word) proprietary. In other words they're special and you cannot buy them anywhere, except maybe from Fender.

I'm now thinking that the only cab that will work with the Mustang V head will have to be one, or more, designed for it and coming from Fender...


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:21 pm
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Exactly. Show me one 2-way "guitar speaker" in existence with a tweeter and a crossover network as both the G-DEC 3 30 and the Mustang II have. That is a FRFR design by definition. Those are what's known broadly in the field as "hi-fi" speakers. Ideal for pre-modeled output.

Either the Mustangs put out a flat pre-modeled tone, or they don't. Non-modeling guitar amps put out a very non-linear response sound that is designed to be corrected/improved/tweaked by very non-linear guitar speakers. One look at the weird spikes in freq response of a typical guitar speaker clues you into that. Guitar speakers make horrible hi-fi speakers: they have weird spikes optimized for the output of an electric guitar coming out of an electric guitar amp output.

This is precisely why they make Atomic Amps: they take the pre-modeled output of devices such as the POD series and amplify them WITHOUT COLORATION (meaning FLAT RESPONSE/FULL RANGE).

Mustang amps run on the same core principle as PODs: they output a pre-modeled tone requiring no further coloration (read: frequency distortion) from the speaker.

That's why you can run the line output of the Mustang right into a PA. A PA, by definition, is an FRFR system: Flat Response/Full Range. Not colored for guitar or anything else.

The backing tracks on my G-DEC 3 30 10" require a hi-fi/FRFR speaker system. They sound great through the G-DEC's 2-way FRFR 10" "hi-fi" speaker. Because it is designed from scratch as a hi-fi speaker. The same backing tracks sound just as good through the 2-way FRFR speaker in my Mustang II. Because it is a hi-fi 2-way FRFR speaker.

Can these be termed "Fender Special Design" speakers? Sure, why not?

Backing tracks sound like crap through a "Guitar" speaker. It is NOT flat, it has a highly spikey, distorted freq response. It is not meant to reproduce a pre-modeled tone, or backing tracks.

The Mustang III uses a stock, off-the-shelf Celestion G12T-100. It is in no way a "Fender Special Design" speaker.


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:57 pm
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Musicmaster 2, was that you I saw lurking in the corner of the lab when we designed the amps? Sheesh.

The Mustang II does not have a tweeter. G-DEC 3 Thirty does, yes. As I said before, if you know of an error on our website or a dealer's site somewhere, I'd like to know about it. It's the main reason I jumped on this thread.

The part of the equation that you guys don't have:

The Mustang's power amp response is not flat. In the digital domain, we do some specific EQ tweaking to maximize the tone of the power amp with the pertinent speaker. The "regular" (single paper cone, no tweeter) guitar speaker has, dare I say, a voicing not unlike a Celestion.

Now I am going back to work on some amps.

Signing off for now,

Shane


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