It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:34 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:16 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:36 pm
Posts: 638
I went thru G-DEC, G-DEC 3 Thirty, Line 6 Spider Jam, VOX Tonelab, Mustang Floor, Mustang V and cab, Peavey VIP 3 and Sanpera II. Now I am on a Peavey Vypyr PRO and Sanpera PRO.

I am amazed at how far DSP has come! Still holding onto my SCX2 but I notice the tube hybrid modelling amp seems to be becoming a thing of the past already.

One day guitarists will say, "Daddy, what's a tube?"

_________________
Tiger J

my gear:

Jackson USA Phil Collen PC-1
Warmoth Custom-Build Stratocaster (The Andersong)
Fender American Special Stratocaster
Squier J. Mascis Jazzmaster
Fender Mustang GT40
Eleven HeadRush w/ two Alto TS212 FRFRs


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:37 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
Tiger J wrote:
One day guitarists will say, "Daddy, what's a tube?"

That day is coming sooner than later I promise.

_________________
http://www.fullspectrumonline.com


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:29 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:46 pm
Posts: 453
HIO wrote:
Tiger J wrote:
One day guitarists will say, "Daddy, what's a tube?"

That day is coming sooner than later I promise.

I used to think that regarding vinyl LP's. Been in a Barnes and Noble lately?

_________________
Archtop Bill aka Alder Statesman

Check out my finger-style guitar tracks at www.soundcloud.com/billmcmannis


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:08 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
Archtop Bill wrote:
HIO wrote:
Tiger J wrote:
One day guitarists will say, "Daddy, what's a tube?"

That day is coming sooner than later I promise.

I used to think that regarding vinyl LP's. Been in a Barnes and Noble lately?

That is like comparing apples to pomegranates. <g>

_________________
http://www.fullspectrumonline.com


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:47 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
Tubes are similar to the outlawed manufacturer of the incandescent light bulb in the U. S. for example.

Also just some of the disadvantages.

I quote.

Tubes require a cathode heater. Heater power represents a significant heat loss and energy use.

Tubes require higher voltages for the anodes compared to solid state amplifiers of similar power rating.

Tubes are significantly larger than equivalent solid-state devices.

High impedance and low current output is unsuitable for the direct drive of many real-world loads, notably various forms of electric motors.

Valves have a shorter working life than solid state parts due to various failure mechanisms (such as heat, cathode poisoning, breakage, or internal short-circuits).

Tubes are available in only a single polarity, whereas transistors are available in complementary polarities (e.g., NPN/PNP), making possible many circuit configurations that cannot be realized directly.

Valve circuits must avoid introduction of noise from ac heater supplies.

Microphonics – valves may sometimes be sensitive to sound or vibration, inadvertently acting like a microphone.

I could go on and on but I admit
I am extremely biased and no pun intended. My tube Amps over the years were horribly unreliable and a waste of my time, energy and money.

I delved into modeling over two decades ago and I laughed really hard I swear as it was a joke up until just a few years ago.

My one trick ponies are mostly gone and I am not missing them one freaking bit.

To be able to get a great distortion at lower volume along with many amp styles along with a myriad of effects built in with instant recall.

I better shut up here and not get myself started.

Flame suit and retardant in working order.

_________________
http://www.fullspectrumonline.com


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:56 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:46 pm
Posts: 453
HIO wrote:
Archtop Bill wrote:
HIO wrote:
Tiger J wrote:
One day guitarists will say, "Daddy, what's a tube?"

That day is coming sooner than later I promise.

I used to think that regarding vinyl LP's. Been in a Barnes and Noble lately?

That is like comparing apples to pomegranates. <g>


True, vinyl was the first obsolete technology enjoying a renaissance that jumped to mind.

The September 8 episode of The Guitar Hour features an extended interview with the guys from The Pedal Show. The interview concludes with their thoughts on the future tubes. Enjoyable listening though I doubt anyone will agree 100% with their ideas.

_________________
Archtop Bill aka Alder Statesman

Check out my finger-style guitar tracks at www.soundcloud.com/billmcmannis


Last edited by Archtop Bill on Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:31 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:36 pm
Posts: 638
HIO - You're in the Mustang part of the board so you are probably OK. Don't cut and paste into the lounge area unless you are suicidal though!

_________________
Tiger J

my gear:

Jackson USA Phil Collen PC-1
Warmoth Custom-Build Stratocaster (The Andersong)
Fender American Special Stratocaster
Squier J. Mascis Jazzmaster
Fender Mustang GT40
Eleven HeadRush w/ two Alto TS212 FRFRs


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:33 pm
Offline
Amateur
Amateur

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:39 pm
Posts: 154
HIO wrote:
I could go on and on but I admit
I am extremely biased and no pun intended. My tube Amps over the years were horribly unreliable and a waste of my time, energy and money.


I think there a lot of valid arguments to go with a modeler over a tube amp, but reliability is certainly not one of them.

I've got a variety of tube amps that are 45 years old or older, and other than blown speakers and the occasional tube replacement, are rock steady. I doubt my Mustang will even be usable in another 10 years.

You could make your point if you simply said that solid state wins hands down for weight savings, and cost savings. And modeling in particular wins for repeatability.

Notice that there is nothing in that list about sound. Some modelers sound pretty darn good, but in a side by side shootout against a tube amp, the modelers fail pretty miserably. But in a bar band situation it hardly matters, and nobody in the audience will know the difference.

_________________
1963 Princeton
1965 Twin Reverb
1968 Bandmaster
1970 Champ
1983 (?) Musicmaster
2012 Mustang III
West Grande (x2)
Acoustic G60-T
Marshall JTM 60


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:05 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
Tiger J wrote:
HIO - You're in the Mustang part of the board so you are probably OK. Don't cut and paste into the lounge area unless you are SUICIDE, idal though!


LOL!!!!!!!

_________________
http://www.fullspectrumonline.com


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:30 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
thompal wrote:
HIO wrote:
I could go on and on but I admit
I am extremely biased and no pun intended. My tube Amps over the years were horribly unreliable and a waste of my time, energy and money.


I think there a lot of valid arguments to go with a modeler over a tube amp, but reliability is certainly not one of them.

I've got a variety of tube amps that are 45 years old or older, and other than blown speakers and the occasional tube replacement, are rock steady. I doubt my Mustang will even be usable in another 10 years.

You could make your point if you simply said that solid state wins hands down for weight savings, and cost savings. And modeling in particular wins for repeatability.

Notice that there is nothing in that list about sound. Some modelers sound pretty darn good, but in a side by side shootout against a tube amp, the modelers fail pretty miserably. But in a bar band situation it hardly matters, and nobody in the audience will know the difference.

Well I will admit that the old point to point wired amps were reliable. Most of my issues were with tubes in the last couple of decades and we are talking amps that were on the road and even amps used *only* in the studio.

I have had really bad luck with tubes. Like my last two 65 Deluxe Reverb Reissues it took like 8 in a box from Guitar Center to find two that didn't have a tube or other issue. From then on nothing but problems. I could tell another hundred stories with other amps but have had zero issues or problems from my Mustang and Floor so far. They just work and I am biased. <g>

_________________
http://www.fullspectrumonline.com


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:46 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
thompal wrote:
Notice that there is nothing in that list about sound. Some modelers sound pretty darn good, but in a side by side shootout against a tube amp, the modelers fail pretty miserably. But in a bar band situation it hardly matters, and nobody in the audience will know the difference.

I beg to differ with you that they fail miserably in a side by side shootout in sound and I can surely appreciate your opinion. I wear many hats and one of them is an audio engineer and I have seen a lot of *subjective* shoot outs on the web where people were picking the wrong amp but I also did some shoot outs in my recording studio. The Stangs were right up there and close but then when you add in all the other aspects like everything they can do it was a no-brainer for me. I will admit I am biased though. <G> My 2 cents anyway. I love the Fender Twin patch with a little delay and *hall* reverb. Never cared for them (sic) springs.

_________________
http://www.fullspectrumonline.com


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:16 am
Offline
Amateur
Amateur

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:39 pm
Posts: 154
HIO wrote:
thompal wrote:
Notice that there is nothing in that list about sound. Some modelers sound pretty darn good, but in a side by side shootout against a tube amp, the modelers fail pretty miserably. But in a bar band situation it hardly matters, and nobody in the audience will know the difference.

I beg to differ with you that they fail miserably in a side by side shootout in sound and I can surely appreciate your opinion. I wear many hats and one of them is an audio engineer and I have seen a lot of *subjective* shoot outs on the web where people were picking the wrong amp but I also did some shoot outs in my recording studio. The Stangs were right up there and close but then when you add in all the other aspects like everything they can do it was a no-brainer for me. I will admit I am biased though. <G> My 2 cents anyway. I love the Fender Twin patch with a little delay and *hall* reverb. Never cared for them (sic) springs.


There are a number of reasons that I believe it is nearly impossible for the Mustang to do much better than "real close" to the original amp. Probably the biggest bottleneck is the speaker. I've noticed that my Model III gets the closest when I am trying to approximate an amp with a single speaker in an open back cabinet. When trying to model a multi-speaker open back cabinet, such as a Twin or Bassman, you are going to miss the phase interactions. And if you are trying to model a closed back cabinet, there is no way to get either the phase interactions or the "cabinet thump." Plus, using a Celestion in an open back cabinet is one of my least favorite combinations. I do wonder if a Mustang IV would do better with a Twin model, or a Model V would be the best option to model a Marshall 4x12.

But secondly, consider the options available in an analog situation when crafting your sound. How many different combinations of tube types and brands are available in both the preamp and output sections. How many different speaker brands and models are available? For that matter, how many brands of distortion/overdrive pedals are out there? Compressors? Flangers, phase shifters? Literally HUNDREDS of each one? When people argue endlessly over whether a block logo MXR Dynacomp or script logo Dynacomp sounds better, how can anyone expect a digitally modeled "compressor" to compete?

And for each of those items, how many messages on various forums are spent arguing over which is "better" and "sounds better?"

Even the spring reverb can't really be mistaken for the original tank. The noise, vibration sensitivity (with resulting resonance), isn't going to exist in the model. And no, I'm not a fan of spring reverbs at all!

_________________
1963 Princeton
1965 Twin Reverb
1968 Bandmaster
1970 Champ
1983 (?) Musicmaster
2012 Mustang III
West Grande (x2)
Acoustic G60-T
Marshall JTM 60


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:39 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:47 am
Posts: 1256
all points well explained.

I have an MIV, and an MIII and I can't really say, since I also don't have anything to compare it too.

the way I see this (mostly anyway) it's all about the nuances.

What you may very well hear in a side by side compare, in a controlled environment is one set of circumstances.

But, in a live situation, what ever is missing in the modeler is really not going to play a huge factor when there's drums, bass, and other band members to contend with.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:56 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:24 pm
Posts: 18
I love my tube Concert. Great sound, but it is singular. The Mustang emulates several Fender amps quite well. Also does a fair Vox. The variety of a good digital emulator such as the Mustang makes it hard to be against. Particularly the price, size and volume. My 2 cents.

_________________
Wally Beav's Port'Ole


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Thinking about moving on
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:47 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:33 am
Posts: 58
Location: Heber Springs, Arkansas, USA
I think at times we get overly involved with how close a modeling amp can come to a "real" amp. If I can get a sound I like out of an amp, whether a modeler or not, why do I care if it sounds like a specific other amp?
I know the modelers are supposed to get as close as they can to the amps they are emulating, but if you can get a good sound, does it really matter if it sounds exactly like a Twin, Marshall, or whatever?

_________________
Jesus is Lord


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: