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Post subject: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:48 pm
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Hi, I'm brand new at the electric guitar stuff so I hope you'll bear with me as I ask what most certainly is a newbie question regarding volume.

There's a "volume" knob on my guitar, there are "gain" "volume" and "master" knobs on my just-today-arrived Mustang III v2. While I'm awaiting the arrival of my electric guitar itself, I'm trying to figure this stuff out a little bit. If I'm correct in my understanding that all four of these knobs in some way control volume, why are there four of them, and what is the preferred way of balancing them all out?

Similarly, there are two tone knobs on my guitar (for different pickups as I understand things), and three more (treble, middle, bass) on the amp. That again seems a touch duplicative/confusing, though perhaps not quite as much.

Any musings of yours on these topics will be appreciated! If there's some basic tutorial site you can direct me to that would also be appreciated, since I've downloaded and read both the "quick start" and "advanced" owners guides for the amp, and still have these basic questions.

I'm a little nervous that learning the amp will be harder than learning to play a guitar in the first place. Up until now, "volume" just meant hit the strings harder!


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:41 pm
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Yours questions are great! Not dumb at all! Congratulations on the new gear! You didn't mention what type of Guitar.

As for the Volume, Tone, etc.....

The Amp's Master Volume is just that! It controls the overall Volume Level output (Sound Pressure Level aka SPL) from the amp. It also controls the volume level of any iPod or other audio device you connect to the Amp's top panel Aux input. Everything in the signal chain in front of this Master Volume knob can also affect how things sound and how loud things sound.

Your guitar's pickups generate signals that pass through your guitars wiring, active electronics, if any, switches, Volume and Tone controls, electronic components and out the instrument cable on its way to your amp. Some also use Pedals before the signal gets to the amp. Unless you are using active (i.e powered) pickups, components, or Pedals, the signal's voltage level will not be increased or made any louder than it's native low voltage level. This will vary depending on the type of guitar, pickups, etc. The Guitar's Volume controls when turned down from maximum position act primarily to attenuate (reduce) the signal's voltage level and hence volume. The guitar's Tone controls are most often wide open at their Max positions and typically act to attenuate (reduce/roll off/cut) the high end treble frequency response as you turn them down. This varies greatly depending on the type of guitar and how it's controls are wired!

When your signal reaches the Amp, the Amp's features allow you to adjust the Volume, Drive, Gain, Treble, Mid and Bass, (and more, depending on the Modeled amp selected). These controls are cumulative. Each has it's own particular affect on the way the selected modeled amp sounds, bas3d on the way that modeled amp was originally designed to respond.

Adjusting these controls is a matter of individual taste and preference. Gain staging is the process of balancing each of these controls to a level that you prefer and typically where theh are all not set at maximum. This gain staging allows youmtomexplore the response, headroom and characteristics of increasing and decreasing each of the controls within their range and under the circumstances of how the other controls in the signal chain are set. For example, adjusting Drive and/or Gain can have a significant affect on how clean or distorted of a sound you get, just as can adjusting the Vol control on your guitar. You will decide how and what you like as you explore these.

Even before you plug a guitar into your amp, simply spinning the Data Wheel to step between Presets will demonstrate that they are not all at the same room volume level - even with the Master Volume set at 3! When you plug in your guitar you will see this very quickly. Off the 100 memory Presets those at 83 to 99 are the 17 Basic Modeled Amps w/o any FX enabled. These each have very different individual room SPL volume levels due to their characteristic Drive, Gain, Amp settings etc. that give each their characteristic sound. A great way to learn you Amp is to begin by adjusting each of these 17 Basic Amp Presets so that they are closer to sounding roughly of the same room volume when selected -- with the Master Volume unchanged. Each Amp offers Controls via the LCD panel when you tap the Amp Button 2x that allow more adjustments tl further contour their sound characteristics. This Page 2 Advanced deep Amp menu is where the Mustang's Magic exists!

As for the Tone controls on the Amp, these each are designed to affect the frequency response (cutoff point and $@!&#) of the selected modeled amp of the Preset. Thus they do not always sound the same! What you experience by sweeping any of them throuh their control range will vary from Amp to Amp!

As for the 83 Presets 00 through 82 these are each examples of combinations of the 17 Basic Amps (often adjusted to settings other than found in the same named Amp of the 17 Basic Presets) with one or more of the 44 FX from the 4 FX banks.

Bear in mind that unless you actually overwrite a Preset by Pressing the Red illuminated Save button and confirming the Save action you are always in a free to explore mode on the Mustang! Simply rotate the Data Wheel one click whole viewing the Preset's main display and you'll avoid changing anything. To give yourself even more of a comfort safety net, enable the Memory Lock feature by pressing the UTIL button 8x and turn On the Memory Lock feature. And, you can always do, a Factory Reset on the Amp to get it back to out of the box condition.

Once you dig into the learning curve, and there certainly is one with the Mustang, you'll quickly get the hang of how to get things adjusted.

Remember that all of the physical knobs except the Master Volume are disabled until rotated, and that they each are essentially in their individual respective virtual value position as seen when you choose any Preset and tap the Amp Button 1x! This displays the virtual values of each knob for that Preset rgardless of the knob's physical setting - so long as you have not rotated the knob!

You'll love the Mustang the more you get to know it!

This has been a long enough post for now. I didn't have a chance to reread it and there may be typos, etc. Ask as many questions as you need. We're all here to help and share in the learning.

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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:17 pm
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Wow MusicLaw, that was impressive and so very much appreciated.

I'm awaiting one of the Limited Edition Stratocasters from the "10 for '15" set this year, an Oil Rubbed Ash American Standard.

You've given me the sort of orientation I was hoping for, though I now believe I'll have to actually plug the guitar in before I can more fully embrace your teachings.

I'm even more excited than before to get it in the house!

Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:32 pm
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HM wrote:
Wow MusicLaw, that was impressive and so very much appreciated.

I'm awaiting one of the Limited Edition Stratocasters from the "10 for '15" set this year, an Oil Rubbed Ash American Standard.

You've given me the sort of orientation I was hoping for, though I now believe I'll have to actually plug the guitar in before I can more fully embrace your teachings.

I'm even more excited than before to get it in the house!

Thanks!
Hey man, you've got a sweet Strat heading your way! You'll have a blast with it and your Amp. Happy to help!

If you have an Android device, check out the Remuda App from the Google Play App Store. It makes instantly dialing in all sorts of settings a breeze! Also has easy drag and drop to rearrange and sort your presets, and lots more, that neither FUSE nor the Amp can do by themselves. I use Remuda right by my side while kicking back on the couch to experiment with the Amp models and FX settings.

One more suggestion.... If your budget can handle it, consider getting the optional 4btn fsw. It adds a really useful Tuner/Mute feature, a Quick Access Preset mode, a Navigation Preset Mode, and an FX Toggle Mode, all while working in conjuncton with or instead of your existing 2btn fsw, and it accepts the also optional EXP-1 FX Expression and Volume Control Pedal. These can always be added later, but would be very cool, to have right from the get go.

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Mustang v2 III/IV●EXP-1●FUSE●REMUDA
Epi LP Florentine Pro●LP Cstm Pros●LP PlusTop Pro●Sheraton-II Pro
Cstm Strat Vntg Noiseless●Guild D-55
So Creek Cables●BOSS RC-1●RS7500
D'Addario Strings●Vari-Grip●Planet Lock Straps


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:30 am
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MusicLaw as usual, gives you the perfect answer.

and also correct is the comment about the 4 button foot controller


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:23 am
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You could write a book on the subject, but heres a simple concise answer that really is all you need to know. Volume controls and tone controls do very different different things depending on one important factor....whether they are positioned BEFORE the distortion stage or AFTER. A volume control such as on your guitar is going to be pre distortion since you are developing your dist at the amp or with a pedal. Either way the volume in your guitar is therefore PRE distortion. When a volume is used before the distortion stage it doesn't act only as a volume, but even moreso as a distortion control. As you turn it down it will not reduce volume near as much as it would post dist, but it will vary the amount of distortion itself. So with a amp capable of that, which the mustang certainly is with many if not most models, (some don't do this very well) you can go from a lot of distortion to much less or even clean just by rolling your guitar's volume down. The gain control on the amps is actually a volume too, but it is positioned before the distortion and therefore also cleans up as it's turned down. Thos it does act a bit different and i won't go into that as it would be lengthy.

Volume controls like the ones on the mustang that are called "volume" or "master" are post distortion volumes and therefore do act strictly as a volume control in that they lower or raise the actual volume without affecting the amount of gain for the most part.

Tone controls also act different pre and post volume but i've already written a small book here so i'll leave that subject alone. But i think all you really need to know is these controls act very different and therefore accomplish different things when placed before or after the distortion stage. The rest i'll leave you to discover, but thats the one important factor you should know.


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:54 pm
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oczad wrote:
You could write a book on the subject, but heres a simple concise answer that really is all you need to know. Volume controls and tone controls do very different different things depending on one important factor....whether they are positioned BEFORE the distortion stage or AFTER. A volume control such as on your guitar is going to be pre distortion since you are developing your dist at the amp or with a pedal. Either way the volume in your guitar is therefore PRE distortion. When a volume is used before the distortion stage it doesn't act only as a volume, but even moreso as a distortion control. As you turn it down it will not reduce volume near as much as it would post dist, but it will vary the amount of distortion itself. So with a amp capable of that, which the mustang certainly is with many if not most models, (some don't do this very well) you can go from a lot of distortion to much less or even clean just by rolling your guitar's volume down. The gain control on the amps is actually a volume too, but it is positioned before the distortion and therefore also cleans up as it's turned down. Thos it does act a bit different and i won't go into that as it would be lengthy.

Volume controls like the ones on the mustang that are called "volume" or "master" are post distortion volumes and therefore do act strictly as a volume control in that they lower or raise the actual volume without affecting the amount of gain for the most part.

Tone controls also act different pre and post volume but i've already written a small book here so i'll leave that subject alone. But i think all you really need to know is these controls act very different and therefore accomplish different things when placed before or after the distortion stage. The rest i'll leave you to discover, but thats the one important factor you should know.
Great Points!
And, the Guitar Vol's Pot, along with the Gain (sometimes also called: Drive) will often provide wonderfully wide ranges from clean to distortion without any FX unit selected nor enabled from the selected Preset's FX banks!

The ranges of clean to distortion are quite varied depending on Modeled Amp currently selected in the Preset you are editing. With the Mustang you are always in, using, or editing a Preset! This is important to note! This is why it is helpful to adjust the Presets and Basic Modeled Amps for similar sounding room SPL (volume) in the Presets. Doing this makes it easier to hear the differences amongst the amp models as you switch between Presets, regardless if each Preset has a different Amp model selected or the same Amp model selected, so that the overall volume does not dramatically jump (as is the case with the overwhelming majority of the default Presets)!

Bear in mind that whenever you call up an Amp from the Amp selection bank menu (regardless if you do this on the amp directly or using FUSE) the selected Amp comes in from the ROM memory with all of its factory default settings! Thus, every time you bring an Amp model in from the Amp selection menu bank you must reconfigure it from scratch (in whatever Preset you are editing)! The same applies to each of the Mustang's FX! There are two ways to avoid this problem. One method is to save your own customized Basic Model Amp Presets already with the approximate volume adjustments for the selected amp in that Preset. The other method is only available if you have an Android device and use the Android Remuda App, as Remuda remembers your preferred settings for each Amp and FX!

Either of the above methods, lets you easily step between and amongst your customized Presets and hear each of them with dramatic volume changes. This way you can more readily explore how varying the selected amp's Gain and Drive levels and your guitar's vol pot(s) affects the range of clean to distortion. Once you get the handle on this, you can then go on to exploring the FX of your choice. Remuda is also very handy here too, as it has easy Drag & Drop to rearrange your Presets, easy Preset renaming, and when you are ready, it has Drag & Drop repositioning of the FX in the signal chain.

All of this will make far more sense once your guitar arrives....

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Mustang v2 III/IV●EXP-1●FUSE●REMUDA
Epi LP Florentine Pro●LP Cstm Pros●LP PlusTop Pro●Sheraton-II Pro
Cstm Strat Vntg Noiseless●Guild D-55
So Creek Cables●BOSS RC-1●RS7500
D'Addario Strings●Vari-Grip●Planet Lock Straps


Last edited by MusicLaw on Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:28 am
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MusicLaw wrote:
All of this will make far more sense once your guitar arrives....

:lol: that's the quote of the week right there.

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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:42 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
MusicLaw wrote:
All of this will make far more sense once your guitar arrives....

:lol: that's the quote of the week right there.


I'm not so sure, I know for certain that I play guitar better in my head than I do in real life . . . maybe my amp adjustments will be better in my imagination as well. ;-)


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:05 pm
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HM wrote:
strings10927 wrote:
MusicLaw wrote:
All of this will make far more sense once your guitar arrives....
:lol: that's the quote of the week right there.
<snip> I know for certain that I play guitar better in my head than I do in real life . . . <snip> ;-)
That may be an even better candidate for quote of the week! :lol:

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Mustang v2 III/IV●EXP-1●FUSE●REMUDA
Epi LP Florentine Pro●LP Cstm Pros●LP PlusTop Pro●Sheraton-II Pro
Cstm Strat Vntg Noiseless●Guild D-55
So Creek Cables●BOSS RC-1●RS7500
D'Addario Strings●Vari-Grip●Planet Lock Straps


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:21 am
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MusicLaw wrote:
Bear in mind that whenever you call up an Amp from the Amp selection bank menu (regardless if you do this on the amp directly or using FUSE) the selected Amp comes in from the ROM memory with all of its factory default settings! Thus, every time you bring an Amp model in from the Amp selection menu bank you must reconfigure it from scratch (in whatever Preset you are editing)! The same applies to each of the Mustang's FX! There are two ways to avoid this problem. One method is to save your own customized Basic Model Amp Presets already with the approximate volume adjustments for the selected amp in that Preset. The other method is only available if you have an Android device and use the Android Remuda App, as Remuda remembers your preferred Amp settings for each Amp and FX! .


And to this i will add that it will not allow you to save your settings till you unlock the amp in the utility settings. there is a setting, i think called "memory lock" or something like that which when "on" does not allow you to save edits you make to a patch. It's is set to on by default, so as soon as you get the amp i would advise you to go into the utility settings and find that one and turn it off before you start playing around with the amp. Otherwise if you start tweaking and find a great sound you're gonna lose it if you don't save it, and with so many setting in every patch it can be hard to remember what you changed and how much.


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:32 am
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oczad wrote:
And to this i will add that it will not allow you to save your settings till you unlock the amp in the utility settings. there is a setting, i think called "memory lock" or something like that which when "on" does not allow you to save edits you make to a patch. It's is set to on by default, so as soon as you get the amp i would advise you to go into the utility settings and find that one and turn it off before you start playing around with the amp. Otherwise if you start tweaking and find a great sound you're gonna lose it if you don't save it, and with so many setting in every patch it can be hard to remember what you changed and how much.
The Memory Lock fetaure is in the UTIL Button Menu. I don't recollect whether it was "On" or "Off" by Default. I leave mine set to "On," as a Safety, to assure there are no accidental nor inadvertnet changes nor tampering with my Presets. Even with the Memory Lock feature On, should you wish to Save a Change when you press the Red Save Button, the LCD will inform you the Memory Lock is enabled, and right from there you can directly access the UTIL button menu to disable the Lock, and still Save your changes without further interruption nor delay. If I'm certain that I'll be making changes to several Presets that I will want to be Saving I will turn off the Memory Lock to avoid the prompting Safety step as depicted above each time. When finished with my changes, I reenable the Memory Lock.

All of the above is moot when using Remuda on an Android Smartphone or Tablet connected to the Amp! Remuda easily lets you demo -- nondestructively -- changes to your Preset, Amp, and FX settings, by intelligently handling the Save and Cancel operations regardless of the Amp's Memory Lock status! The latest Remuda build 1.2.0 has vastly improved this! You are free to explore how any change to any Preset, or Amp and FX parameter(s) combination work for you. If you like them Save them. If not, it is a simple matter to visually see which parameters and what values have changed and roll back to the prior settiings for any of the parameters individually, or all of them in the aggregate group (Preset or Amp or FX), or for all these groups comprising a Preset. Remuda uses Red illuminated Save Button like the Amp's whenever any 'arameter has changed. It also displays a Red Asterisk adjacent to any numeric parameter if it changes from the previous value, and the color of the numeric value changes as you vary it from the prior value. Bring the value slider back to the prior Preset value and the color goes back to normal and the Red Asterisk disappears. This is for each of the numeric field values for that edit screen. Hitting the Cancel button accomplishes the same for all the fields in that edit screen. For selection list values there is an Angle Bracket character showing the prior value.

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Mustang v2 III/IV●EXP-1●FUSE●REMUDA
Epi LP Florentine Pro●LP Cstm Pros●LP PlusTop Pro●Sheraton-II Pro
Cstm Strat Vntg Noiseless●Guild D-55
So Creek Cables●BOSS RC-1●RS7500
D'Addario Strings●Vari-Grip●Planet Lock Straps


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:13 pm
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So . . . my guitar arrived and it looks, feels and sounds beautiful.

I plugged it into my new amp and I must say that I am overwhelmed with the sounds it produces. I presume I'm not the "normal" type of purchaser of this stuff, while I'm reasonably comfortable with an acoustic guitar, I am a real dunce about an electric guitar and amp. So maybe my absolute shock is unusual.

Over the years I had vaguely presumed that much of the sounds I heard from recordings of electric guitar music was strictly a function of the technique that electric guitar players employed. And now I see that that was supremely ignorant -- even my limited skills seem to get me close to places I didn't think I'd be able to tread.

Anyway, after my head stops spinning I'll try to find my way. It was my initial plan to find some sort of "basic" (clean, if that's the word?) setting, and after getting used to things branch out from there. But I must say in the brief time I've put into this, I can't seem to find a "basic" sound (maybe there isn't even really such a thing!). When I try to dial reverb (or whatever) down to get one of the presets at what I presume might be a "basic" sound, there always seems to be some other kind of impressive coloration going on. Anybody have a detailed recipe for a truly basic sound? What amp model to start with, what number to dial in for each value, how many times to press the big knob, do I hit the illuminated buttons to further flatten things out (buttons like "stomp" "mod" "delay")?


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:05 pm
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You're already thriving in the rich diversity of Mustang's features! That's teriffic!

The cleanest Preset in the Amp is the Basic Studio PreAmp Preset. It is Memory Number 83. This is the first of the 17 Basic Amp models in the Amp (Presets 83-99). Each of these are the respective Amp model itself (as named) without any FX.

The first customization I did was to move this to Memory Preset 00, so that each time the Amp powers on (it goes to Preset 00) and has this cleanest preset selected. You may wish to consider doing the same. You can do this entirely on the Amp. Here's how....

● Tap UTIL button Six (6) times to reach Memory Lock. Turn Data wheel to turn it "Off." Tap Exit.
● Spin Data Wheel to get to Preset 00 (if not already there).
● Press Save Button.
● Spin Data Wheel to Save the existing Liquid Solo Preset to Destination 83.
● Press the Save Button
● Spin Data Wheel to get to Preset Memory 00.
● Tap the Amp Button.
● Spin Data Wheel to Select "Studio Preamp" from Amp Menu.
● Press Save Button.
● Long Press the Delay Button.
● Spin Data Wheel to select "Empty" from the Delay Menu.
● Press Save Button.
● Long Press the Reverb Button.
● Spin Data Wheel to select "Empty' from the Reverb Menu.
● Press Save Button
● Press Data Wheel to Edit Name to "Basic Studio Pre".
● Press Save Button to Save to Destination 00 (should already be there).
● Turn the Memory Lock back on if you like having it as a Safety.

The Basic Studio Preamp you recalled from the Amp menu has the identical settings as was what originally in memory preset slot 83! You overwrote that with a copy of the Liquid Solo preset from preset memory 00. You did not actually (re)Move the original Liquid Solo preset! You actually copied it to Mem 83. Then you Edited Memory Preset 00 to to change its Amp to Preamp, set the Delay and Reverb FX banks to Empty, and chaged the Name of the Preset

If anything goes wrong, you can simply do the factory reset. You can't hurt anything!

Have a Blast! Rock & Roll!!

_________________
Mustang v2 III/IV●EXP-1●FUSE●REMUDA
Epi LP Florentine Pro●LP Cstm Pros●LP PlusTop Pro●Sheraton-II Pro
Cstm Strat Vntg Noiseless●Guild D-55
So Creek Cables●BOSS RC-1●RS7500
D'Addario Strings●Vari-Grip●Planet Lock Straps


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Post subject: Re: An undoubtedly dumb volume (and tone) question
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:12 am
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Also, yes.. switch off the stomp, mod , delay and reverbs - or at least experiment a lot by trying them on and off.

Stomps are mostly distortion
Mods are things like chorus, phase, flange etc.
Delay adds various echos
Reverb is kinda shimmery like shouting in a bathroom

I'm sure you know some of that - the last three all fatten up a sound and can all be pushed into special effect territory

The built in presets have way too much of all four, especially delay and reverb - Fender did them to sound good to spotty kids visiting guitar shops!

I've had my M III for two years and what I liked has changed enormously. There's a lot to get to grips with but it's not hard work if you're having fun!


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