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Post subject: Seeking snake advice
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:50 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:24 am
Posts: 434
I'm considering getting an audio-snake so that I can put my Passports farther away from the speakers and performers to make adjustments while hearing the room instead of walking around, listening, then walk back and adjust, then walk around, listening. I'm wondering if anyone else here uses snakes and if anyone has advice.

So far, the most useful and inexpensive snake I've found online is the Hosa Little Bro' 6x2. It's almost what I want. It has six XLR cables to connect mics to the six XLR channels on the Passport 500 Pro, and it has two 1/4" TRS cables (female at the performer end, male at the amp end). I'd have to get creative with adapters to make good use of that. The problem is my wife's stereo keyboard, and monitors.

I could get an adapter to go from two 1/4" TS male plugs connected to the keyboard to one 1/4" TRS stereo male to connect to the snake, then have an adapter to go from 1/4" TRS stereo - female (to connect to the snake) to two 1/4" TS male plugs to go to a stereo channel on the Passport. That's a lot of connectors and with a 50' snake, that a long wire for an unbalanced stereo signal. It seems suboptimal. Likely, I need to use a direct box to convert to XLR and just use one of the six XLR channels, hoping I don't run out of channels. Bye-bye stereo.

As for monitors, again, I'm presuming that I can't run an unbalanced stereo signal all the way from the amp through the 50' snake, so perhaps I could use one of my Mackey SRM 150s at the PA, connect to the Passport's Stereo Out with a patch cord from 1/8" TRS stereo to two RCA plugs. That would give me a nearby monitor for getting the balance right, which I could turn down to hear the hall. It has a male XLR output that can be run at either line or mic level. If I select line level and get a female XLR to female 1/4" TRS adapter, I could use one of the 1/4" TRS male plugs from the snake to return to the performer end where a 1/4" TRS instrument cable would give a balanced connection to a second SRM 150, which can daisy chain to as many SRM 150s as I can afford.

Which is not many.

Advice appreciated.


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Post subject: Re: Seeking snake advice
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:08 am
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This may be posted long after the horse has left the barn, but here goes, anyway.

The performer end of the 6/2 snake will receive the microphone/instrument leads as imputs. The two outs should receive your speaker cabinet cables.

The fantail end of the snake will connect to the mixer, six channel inputs and the two returns, 1/4 leads, will go to your mixer speaker outs.

If you want to run monitors, you will need a four return snake (unless there is a hybrid three return snake in the bushes) that will run off your stereo outs.

I have also had great luck running powered speakers off the PD250 channel send connection. These are post mixer/pre-amplifier outs working as monitor and extension powered speaker supply feeds.

Hook in a couple of 125 to 150W personal monitors like Behringer 205D cabinets and you'll be pleased.

Good luck to you.


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Post subject: Re: Seeking snake advice
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:04 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:24 am
Posts: 434
I'm concerned that the two 1/4" returns are not specifically advertised as speaker cables. If they are wired as instrument cables, then the voltage levels of the speaker outs would fry the cable and even start a fire. This is the stupid design part of having the same plug used for both speakers and instruments, even when the wires in the cables have massively different designs and functions.

And if these really are made for passive speaker cables, can I rely on the shielding of the XLR cables to run that distance without interfering with mic level signals running through cables in the same 50' bundle of wire?

In any case, over time, thinking it through, I've decided that the core problem with sound amplification is finding the balance point between having a system that is too simple to do an adequate job, vs. one that is too complex to manage and maintain. While adding the snake adds convenience in terms of making adjustments while out in the hall, it adds another bucket to my pile of gear, and leaves me with the problem of dealing with monitors, which are line level signals going the wrong way for the snake. It also gives me one more potential failure point, and increases my invested cost without any renumeration for it. This is not a business for me, but I like keeping it less expensive as a hobby, when I can.

I've decided to forego the snake. If I'm really doing my job, I'm walking around the hall anyway, to see what the sound is like everywhere, not just where the mixer is sitting. I've seen sound guys get lazy about this because of the snake, and I've noticed their sound is not as great as it could be because of it.


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Post subject: Re: Seeking snake advice
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:18 am
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Contracaller, I hear you loud and clear on the bucket and cost issues.

Perhaps a little more research with someone more credible will serve you on the question of the returns. They will carry the speaker signal from the Passport. At the box, your Passport cables, glorified lamp cords with TS ends, will run to your speakers. The snake merely acts as an extension of all of the cables that you could otherwise run separately.

Being able to stand at the mixer and make adjustments based on the sound reaching the room would seem to make more sense from a quality standpoint than walking into the room, hearing something that needs attention, returning to the mixer, making the adjustment, walking back to the place that needed the fix and hoping that a) you got it right, and b) your memory of the sounds at various places as you walk and fix and walk and fix remains accurate.

Sound engineers will often use a mono signal to the speakers unless there is a really important reason to use stereo. The will position themselves in front of one speaker cabinet to hear and tweak the sound, then walk the room to ensure the coverage is what they want. When using a stereo output, the engineer will be positioned between the speakers and make adjustments for the best sound, still walking the room to fix any coverage issues. In both cases, the engineer often makes the settings and has an assistant tend the mixer while the engineer walks the room, directing the assistant to fix the mix.

The snake is simply a collection of extension cords for audio signals. The longer it is and the more cords included make the costs go up. The snake makes connections and cord management simple. Lay the box on the stage, plug in the mikes, instruments and speaker cables and roll the cable out to the mixer position. Plug in the cables to to the mixer, turn it on, and set your levels. At the end of the night, Roll up one long cord and the various short ones, not eight to ten long, tangled cords. For that convenience, night after night, you trade some bucks and carry a bucket.

From what you have described, a 6 channel with four returns snake will meet your signal needs. Run your mixer in mono. for the returns, run two to your speaker cabinets, and one from your Right Send to your first monitor, then daisy chain your monitors.

The Passport is a simple device, becoming simpler with each new model design. It is designed for fairly simple applications. Look at Fender's examples. One or two instruments with one or two microphones; a Cd player and computer for back up tracks settles your maximum inputs. Two speakers and one or two monitor/recorder outs and your done. Tone reverb and monitor adjustments are your limitations.

If you need more speaker channels, multiple monitor mixes (not the main feed through a monitor) and the ability to perform sophisticated channel tweaking, buy a standard mixer with more channels than you need now. In your case, that would be an 8 to 12 channel mixer with at least two monitor mixes. make it a powered mixer or get two powered speakers and you're in business. Mixer costs - from $100 to $200. 400 watt powered speakers are about $300 each. You already have cables and monitors. 6 or 8 channel snakes with four returns are available for $150 and up. This is about the cost of a Passport 300 Pro and far less than a 500 Pro. Not as convenient, but far more flexible and powerful.

These are just thoughts for alternate solutions to your problems. I have faced the same problems and can't stop myself from trying to make life simple for everyone. My best to you in hobby!


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Post subject: Re: Seeking snake advice
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:54 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:24 am
Posts: 434
Everything you say sounds like good general advice, though not especially useful for me in particular. Your suggestion of a separate line-level mixer and powered speakers would require me to purchase a larger vehicle to carry them in, and perhaps a stronger back to get the speakers up onto stands. Given the excellent sound quality of the 15 pound speakers that come with the Passport, it's going to be really hard to convince me to go out and buy powered speakers that weigh 2-4 times as much, and are large enough to not fit in my car. I have two Passports, and they provide me with four speakers and take up less room and weigh less than most two-speaker systems designed as you recommend.

I find the Passports very versatile. I've done sound for bands and callers for contra dances, for DJs and callers for techno contra dances, and for a choir's concert (recording the concert for them, which they really liked). The one shortcoming is the lack of a separate monitor mix, excluding the caller, and I've come up with a couple of different work-arounds that make people happy. I have more than one work-around because the needs of different bands are different.

For one band, I use one Passport for the band and the other Passport for the caller, running the monitor out of the band's Passport, and splitting that signal to also feed it into the caller's Passport. This works better than I expected. People never notice that the caller isn't coming out of all four speakers.

For a different band, the keyboard player has an in-line monitor for just her, I use a small line-level mixer to combine her stereo input from her keyboard with the mandolin player, feeding him a monitor mix that's mostly mandolin with some keyboard, to his liking (so he can hear himself over the drummer). His mix goes to a Mackey SRM 150, daisy chained to another one going to the keyboard player. She adjusts her monitor mix by varying the volume of her two monitors (one just her, and the other mostly him). The drummer gets a third SRM 150 with the mostly-mandolin mix.

The line-level mixer goes into one Passport's stereo channel. The drummer's two mics go into two mono ports. The caller goes into another mono port. They go out the house mix, but aren't in the monitors. All this goes out the stereo out on one Passport to a stereo channel on the other Passport.

I often have to take the keyboard as well as the sound system in my Honda Fit. The techno dances require the addition of a powered subwoofer, but doesn't require the keyboard, so everything still fits. If one venue required everything in my collection of equipment, it wouldn't fit in the car. Fortunately, I never need everything at once.

For the size venues I work at, the sound is great.

I find the LEDs very helpful to set up the initial mix, then I'm comfortable walking around the entire room to get a sense of both EQ and volume balance for the entire dance floor or audience seating. I adjust speaker placement and aim, relative volume, overall volume and EQ incrementally to suit what walking around suggested the room needed.

I don't see myself using any more or longer cables this way than I would if I had a snake, since I put the Passports near where I'd put the snake's box. The snake would just give me one more long cable to work with.

Four returns won't do the job, unless two of the returns are speaker cables and at least one is an XLR cable wired backwards to the rest of the snake, since I'm sending passive-speaker-level signals through two returns, and a line level speaker to an active monitor. And even then, I've lost two main speakers, compared to my current setup.

Basically, snakes are designed for certain standard setups, and mine isn't close enough to standard anymore. I'd need six XLR in one direction, four 1/4"TS returns for speaker wires, plus one backwards XLR for monitors.

Oh, and I don't usually use more than one of the Passport cables. Most speakers are farther out. I have two 30' cables and two 50' cables, and two female-female 1/4"TS adapters for longer runs. If a speaker is close enough for the Passport cable, I use it, because it works fine over it's short length. Longer runs need better cables.

As for stereo, it's only real use in PA applications is for stereo effects, or for qualitative sound differences for electronic keyboards or such. You don't want "pan" effects, since someone standing near one speaker will hear too much piano and not enough mandolin, etc. But even standing near one speaker, a stereo chorus sounds better in stereo than it does in mono, because you can tell that the sound here is different from the sound there, even when it's louder.

I'm invested in what I have. It's working well. I'm not going to dump it and start over, especially for something that will be harder to pack up, stuff in the car and haul around. That convenience is more important to me than the convenience of making adjustments that favor where I'm standing instead of doing it all from memory of walking around the room.

The development of that comparative, qualitative memory has been a big part of what makes me as good at this as I am. I actually see it as an advantage to have to ignore the sound I hear as I make adjustments because I'm making them in the acoustically worst place in the room. I'm making them in the one place I don't care how it sounds, because the dancers and the audience aren't listening to it there.

They are listening to it in all the places I'm walking around. So, I don't get it too loud for the people up front, or too quiet for the people in the back, and the tweeters are aimed for the most even distribution of treble around the room as possible. I adjust it for the whole room, not for the spot next to the mixer. The snake just improves the placement of the mixer, tempting me to favor what it sounds like next to the mixer, as if that spot were as important as everywhere else. In any performance, the mixer is the least important location in the room to judge sound quality.


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Post subject: Re: Seeking snake advice
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:44 pm
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I'm glad to hear you're happy, Contracaller, because that really is the most important thing in life.

One of the things that keeps me happy is helping others who can use help. I am still learning that not everyone that I think needs the benefit of my knowledge or help agrees with me.

Stomp on, Dude! Stomp on.


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