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Post subject: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:52 am
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Can I pair the Rumble v3 500w head with the Rumble 115 cab with no problems? I want to add the 410 cab in the future, but for now I just want to use the 115. Also, in the specs for the 115 cab it stated this "600 watts (Program), 300 watts (Continuous) Handling Capability". What exactly does that mean? Thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:05 am
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salamanderpie wrote:
Can I pair the Rumble v3 500w head with the Rumble 115 cab with no problems? I want to add the 410 cab in the future, but for now I just want to use the 115. Also, in the specs for the 115 cab it stated this "600 watts (Program), 300 watts (Continuous) Handling Capability". What exactly does that mean? Thanks.


Yes you can, and what that means it that the 500 head can blow your 115 if you are not careful. Your best bet is to start with the 410.

There are a lot of good reasons not to mix a 115 with a 410, but many do and later regret it when they blow out their 115.

A much better combination of 10's & 15 is the Rumble 500 2x10 combo on top of the Rumble 115 cab. This works very well and sounds great according to those that own such a rig. Read here -> http://www.talkbass.com/threads/fender-rumble-club.970397/page-63

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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:56 am
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How do they blow their 115 when both 115, and 410 are 8 ohms, the 115 300 watts RMS, the 410 500 watts RMS. The head will only put out 500 watts total, @ 4 ohms. 300 Watts @ 8 ohms. The 115 peaks out @ 600 watts, the 410 peaks out @ 1,000 watts. More than enough to handle a 500 watt head. I don't see it.

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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:58 pm
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Thanks for the input. I have another question. Due to finances I have to buy the head and cabinet separately. I plan on buying the head first. While I wait until I can afford the cab, can I use the headphone input on the 500w head and hear my bass?


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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:24 pm
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salamanderpie wrote:
Thanks for the input. I have another question. Due to finances I have to buy the head and cabinet separately. I plan on buying the head first. While I wait until I can afford the cab, can I use the headphone input on the 500w head and hear my bass?


You're welcome, and yes you can use headphones without having a speaker cab connected, as plugging in your headphones disconnects power going to the speaker jacks anyway. 8)


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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:32 pm
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Thank you kind Bass Wizard.


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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:29 pm
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Mr. Nylon wrote:
How do they blow their 115 when both 115, and 410 are 8 ohms, the 115 300 watts RMS, the 410 500 watts RMS. The head will only put out 500 watts total, @ 4 ohms. 300 Watts @ 8 ohms. The 115 peaks out @ 600 watts, the 410 peaks out @ 1,000 watts. More than enough to handle a 500 watt head. I don't see it.


The specs for the Fender Rumble V3 500W Bass Amp Head actually does 350 watts at 8 Ohms, not 300. On PAPER it still looks like the 8 Ohm 300 watt continuous/600 watt peak 1x15 running solo with the head which does 350 Watts RMS is a reasonably decent match so long as you don't get heavy handed with either the low end EQ or the master volume. Adding another 8 Ohm cab ASAP to this 1x15 stack is a good idea. But maybe a better idea is to start with the 4x10 cab instead and then add the 1x15 for lushness. Also in recent years Fender has been ultra conservative in the power ratings of their previous Rumble head series. As has been stated in the amp forum here before, the previous Rumble 500 heads really did more like 600 watts at 4 Ohms instead of the stated 500 at 4 Ohms, and I suspect the new V3 is just as conservatively rated...meaning it may actually be pushing out more than the stated 500 watts at 4 Ohms or 350 watts at 8 Ohms. (On the other hand the "Big A" company would have probably called it 1,000 watts.)

Anyway what may be happening to blow the speakers in 1x15 cabs is not that the cab is OVERPOWERED but instead the power amp section of the head is being OVERDRIVEN into clipping and the clipping is what damages the speaker, not clean power. Clipping power amps produce a square wave instead of a nice peaky sine wave. No speaker can convert a square wave into audible energy, so the energy in the square wave is instead converted to heat in the voice coil. If this heat builds up long enough it will literally melt the voice coil killing the speaker dead. Sometimes you can smell the copper heating up, sometimes not. To avoid this think of the master as being maxed out at 12 o'clock. This is true for any solid state bass amp. Why? Because bass frequencies burn watts like a bonfire consuming the lion's share of the power. Few bassists run their low frequency/bass EQ knob much below 12 o'clock. Many crank it to 2 or 3 o'clock. The more you crank that bass EQ and also that low mid EQ then the less headroom you are going to have before the power amp starts pushing square waves to the speaker. In a typical midrange scoop EQ setting at 12 o'clock on the master volume you are using 80 to 90% or perhaps even more of the amp's clean power. Going to 3 o'clock yields what may sound to your ears like a normal tone but some inaudible minor clipping will probably be present and over enough time even minor inaudible clipping will damage a loudspeaker voice coil through the accumulation of heat. The speaker could be rated 1000 watts continuous and a 500 watt solid state amp pushed into clipping will still eventually destroy it! Power amp clipping is what kills most speakers, not being supplied clean power at or even just above the speaker's rated power. With a 1x15 cab you are not going to get as loud as with a 4x10. So players using a solo 1x15 have to push the amp harder to cut through the mix and the stage wash and this often takes the head into clipping territory. Severe clipping is audible, but inaudible minor clipping will eventually have the same outcome speaker-wise, it just takes longer. I think that might be part of the reason people using a lone 1x15 cab wind up blowing them. They do sound lush but they inherently have the lowest SPL output of about any cab and trying to compensate for this by cranking the master much past 12 o'clock is just asking for trouble.

Some amp manufacturers incorporate clipping detection circuitry into head design with a warning lamp blinking yellow for minor clipping and red for heavy clipping. Others incorporate automated clipping mitigation circuitry under various trade names which results in the volume knob doing nothing beyond the point at which inaudible minor clipping is just about to begin. You can crank the master wide open and it gets no louder than at 1 o'clock for example. Peavey power amps, at least at one time, were noted as having this feature calling it "DDT Compression" with DDT standing for Distortion Detection Technique. It is a good feature because it helps protect your speakers. But you can pretty much accomplish the same thing by holding the master volume to 12 o'clock or less.


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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:56 am
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For what it's worth I have ran my old rig that I love and still have in storage like this off and on for awhile. (SWR 550X with 2 Fender Pro 115s) 8 years to be exact and I gigged them hard. The head is 550 watts at 4ohms, and 375 watts at 8. The cab handling is 350 watts at 8ohms. SO there is plenty of headroom when running the fulls stack at 4 ohms. 550watts from the head split into cabs that can handle 700 watts total. I have also gigged that half stack much of the time in there. This half stack configuration is overpowered. Meaning that the head is pumping at full power more 25 more watts than the cab can handle. Now I have done this for 8 years and have NEVER blown a 15. Ever.

However, you have to understand what you are doing. In my case I use the half stack only for smaller quiet gigs. Meaning gigs where if I was running the full stack I wouldn't be able to turn up past 3 or 4. So when I'm running the half I am usually at about noon. This means that I am not pushing the head and I'm not using all of it's power. If I were to turn up to 7 or higher I would run the risk of blowing the speaker.

If you are thinking of running the 410 with a 115 eventually I would wholeheartedly recommend the 410 first. Which is exactly what I have done with my current rig. By adding a 15 later on you can add the fatness to the sound. However, by running the 410 alone in the half stack you are getting a LOT more cone and projection. Which means you will run into very few situations where the 410 is honestly not "enough" even at the lower power output. In any event like that you should be lined out or mic'd into the PA and the PA should give you the bigger cones. Possibly even a sub if it's nice enough. Basically you are getting the most sound for the lower power rating. More boom for your buck.

The reality is that a 410 gives you more projection than 2 15s. Much less 1 of them. You don't realize how little sound you will get out of a 115. No matter how much power you put behind it until you are in a band situation. If you've got a drummer running a barebones kit, and a guitarist running a 110 or 112 lower powered amp you MIGHT be able to get away with a 115. However, anything more robust and you will be seriously buried in the mix without PA support. Which will tempt you to turn up. Which will risk blowing your cab. Also, there should be NO WAY running the head with the 410 and 115 in parallel should blow either cab if they are both 8 ohms. Ever. The 500 watts should be split evenly between them and you'll have plenty of headroom for both cabs.

You CAN do this. However, from both a safety and effectiveness standpoint I would encourage the 410 first and the 115 as an addition later on. Otherwise if you are playing something like reggae and simply must have the fatness of the 15s then my advice is to get two of them right out the gate like I did. Just remember that you'll still be projecting less sound than with the 410 alone even though you are getting more power. Believe me. I lived this for 8 years, and I am a die hard 15 fan. I still went with the 410 and will eventually scoop up a used newer Pro 115 Neo for "a little something extra" for bigger shows or clubs with a nice dance floor down the line.

Unless you can both afford to buy both 115s now, and are perfectly happy with lugging them both around the vast majority of the time. (It gets old. Believe me.) Then I have to recommend the 410.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. If I can help in any way let me know.

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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:39 am
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Strange this one! I know it's an old thread but it's scaring a friend of mine away from buying just that setup with the same intention. Rumble + 1x15 with 1x15 or 4x10 to follow. As an electronics designer of audio kit in both the hifi and instrument arenas I have to say in my experience, (over 40years of it), it's nonsense. :oops:

I suggest you don't believe me, have a look here: http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/mythbusters1.htm Now I would think that most of us would have a little respect for Barefaced and their kit? Look from point 4.1 onwards.....

It's an interesting idea but is not really born out in reality.


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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:33 pm
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It's well known that a single 15" woofer cannot possibly match the output of 4x10" woofers of the same sensitivity. A 15" is about equal to 2x10's in terms of amount of air moved and volume output.

I know the Barefaced site well and have read a lot of Alex Claber's articles.

While a lot of people do mix a single 115 cab with a 410, it's just not the smartest thing in the world to do. If you're bound and determined to do so, just put the 115 on top of the 410 so you can hear it. The audience is only going to hear the 410 cab anyway.

10's go just as low as 15's and sometimes even lower. Acme "Lo-B" 110 cabs are a prime example. They are the only 110's that are actually capable of reproducing a low B 31 Hz fundamental at volume and not self destruct.

If your friend is buying a Fender Rumble 500 head, KUDOS to him (or her) Their best bet is to: a) buy a pair of; 1) 410's, or 2) 115's and not mix. New options have just arrived in the form of 112's, and also 210's. So now you have a whole lot of other speaker options to consider. Many at the Fender Rumble Club have been over the moon with the Rumble 500 2x10 combo on top of a Rumble 115 cabinet. That's the best mixed driver scenario so far. Some are going with the Rumble 200 1x15 combo and one of the new Rumble 112 cabs.

So tell your friend good luck and happy Rumblin'!

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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:59 am
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If I had the Rumble 500 combo, I would have paired it with a 15" cab, too. I've never had any problems with 15"s, so even with the head variant I'd want to go that route. It's all a matter of preference, though. I just like bigger speakers. That's why I'm running an 18" cab now. I know those aren't that popular (like I give a you know what, and also more motivation to do so :P ) anymore, but it's something I've always wanted to use, and have had no issues with it what so ever. I don't think Fender ever made one, though. That would be cool if they did. I'd want to get one.

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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:31 pm
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PaulLF wrote:
If I had the Rumble 500 combo, I would have paired it with a 15" cab, too. I've never had any problems with 15"s, so even with the head variant I'd want to go that route. It's all a matter of preference, though. I just like bigger speakers. That's why I'm running an 18" cab now. I know those aren't that popular (like I give a you know what, and also more motivation to do so :P ) anymore, but it's something I've always wanted to use, and have had no issues with it what so ever. I don't think Fender ever made one, though. That would be cool if they did. I'd want to get one.


That 18" Carvin you have is a serious cab.

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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:48 pm
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Yeah, it does put out the low end and I still get enough highs from it, too. At least for my purposes. I suppose someone with a spank plank might need smaller speakers for that sort of thing. :P

I would still like to swap out the speaker for something like a Celestion down the road, preferably in 8 ohms, so I can have the ability to run two cabs, instead of this one in 4 ohms. The great thing about the Orange is it has a switchable impedance switch, which can be handy. It's too bad it doesn't handle a 2 ohm load, though. That would be even better for versatility. 1000 watts can get even nastier with a multitude of cabs to run off of. :twisted:

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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:10 pm
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Interesting points so here are a few thoughts and observations.
Quote:
It's well known that a single 15" woofer cannot possibly match the output of 4x10" woofers of the same sensitivity. A 15" is about equal to 2x10's in terms of amount of air moved and volume output.
In the question of frontal area you are right, a 4x10" will have just under 1.8x that of 1x15". However, consider the free air resonance of the two. Which would you expect to be lower? Looking at the Celestion catalogue as a quick reference, while they strangely don't quote free air resonance for their bass drivers, (they do for their plain guitar drivers), you can see from the impedance curves that the 15" are in general significantly lower than the 10". What does that mean about the relative outputs around the 15" resonance frequency? Though they may have the ability to shift more air overall, the 10s have less of their output low in the frequency range than the 15. Fine if you're a neck spanker but not so good if you want a deeper more classic sound.
Quote:
I know the Barefaced site well and have read a lot of Alex Claber's articles.
And he's damned by faint praise..... :lol:
Quote:
While a lot of people do mix a single 115 cab with a 410, it's just not the smartest thing in the world to do. If you're bound and determined to do so, just put the 115 on top of the 410 so you can hear it. The audience is only going to hear the 410 cab anyway.
Strangely we found this recently, the sound of the 15" on top was very different to the sound with it below but this was in general, not from an audience perspective. At these lower frequencies, (40Hz - 28ft wavelength), and beyond a reasonable distance, sound is very much omnidirectional with the entire cabinet acting as a point source. The 4x10" + 1x15" block will be small enough in relation to the wavelength for beaming due to multiple drivers to not be a major problem too. I would disagree that the audience will only hear the 4x10. They may only the 4x10" considerably higher in the frequency range when the beaming issue between the drivers kicks in but that is a good few octaves up.

So why is it not a smart thing to do? There certainly is no reason demonstrated why a 15" should be put at risk by doing so. To a decent amplifier, two cabs in parallel are driven as effectively separate devices summed. They each see the same output voltage and draw as much current as they each require depending on their impedance curves and the ability of the amp to respond, and now we are running transistor amps they respond so much more accurately than a few years back.

The idea that square waves are generated in clipping is a myth. Firstly, the rate of change (why won't the darned system let me say s-l-o-p-e?) of the remaining untouched signal after clipping is just the same and that demands the same rate of response from the driver. During clipping the signal ceases to increase which is no problem at all to a driver. Which takes more work, staying where you are in the magnetic field or increasing your displacement against the restoring forces? There certainly is increased high frequency content due to the sharper breaking "corners" at the start and end of clipping but, being at much higher frequencies, the energy this represents is not going to trouble a bass driver. Most of this cannot get through to the bass drivers due to voice coil inductance anyway. The idea that increased high frequency content destroys bass drivers is a myth. Tweeters maybe, woofers no!
Quote:
10's go just as low as 15's and sometimes even lower. Acme "Lo-B" 110 cabs are a prime example. They are the only 110's that are actually capable of reproducing a low B 31 Hz fundamental at volume and not self destruct.
I don't doubt that you can design a specific 10" cabinet to go lower than a 15". I have an old set of hifi speakers based on Kef B139s that I designed and built some 40 years ago. The B139 is a racetrack shaped design and has an effective surface area of a round 8" driver. The depth and clarity of bass is awesome, and because of the efficiency aspect of the combined driver/cab they can pump out some dBs too. But we are really talking about the Fender units here aren't we so, while it is interesting to note, is that really relevant to the point under discussion?
Quote:
If your friend is buying a Fender Rumble 500 head, KUDOS to him (or her) Their best bet is to: a) buy a pair of; 1) 410's, or 2) 115's and not mix. New options have just arrived in the form of 112's, and also 210's. So now you have a whole lot of other speaker options to consider. Many at the Fender Rumble Club have been over the moon with the Rumble 500 2x10 combo on top of a Rumble 115 cabinet. That's the best mixed driver scenario so far. Some are going with the Rumble 200 1x15 combo and one of the new Rumble 112 cabs.
He has been using Ashdown gear up to now, a 350W amp, 1x15" and 2x10" but it is running out of steam as other players upgrade. In truth it produced too high and modern a sound for him anyway when driven hard. He's looking for a deep classic sound, no overdrive, which I don't really think 10" based setups offer well at their higher volumes. This is not a miked up scenario which is a different kettle of fish I'm afraid. His gear is responsible for doing it's own job full stop. I think your suggestion of 2 - 1x15" will probably be the way for him to go. They should offer him the depth he wants, and with good tone shaping they should easily be able to control the balance of higher frequencies as he needs.
Quote:
So tell your friend good luck and happy Rumblin'!
Thanks for that and for all the input, your sharing of your experience is appreciated. All opinions and knowledge are interesting, it's just that none, (my own especially), should ever be above question. The only way we learn and move forward is when we are shown to be wrong and we acknowledge it. The process of finding our errors should be a happy one. (Fortunately for me I get a lot of that!) :)


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Post subject: Re: Rumble v3 500 with Rumble 115 cabinet QUESTIONS
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:29 am
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Let me say that threads like this are why these forums are so valuable. So much info and so many people that have detailed and useful info.

I just recently had a chance to play through one of the new Rumble amps, the 40 watt version. Let me say I could not believe the sound from something that small and light. The store won't get in a 500 watt one for me to demo unless I commit to buy it, one of the disadvantages of living in small town Central Wisconsin. But I'm seriously thinking it's time to move toward a newer and lighter amp. This occurred to me again last night as I was carrying my Line 6 Lowdown 300 down to the basement til tomorrow night's gig. I thought I remember reading that thing was 90+ pounds, plus the heavy duty casters I put on it to roll it? Sucks to be 50.

So if I read this information and understood any of it, I normally run my Lowdown at about 12 o'clock for gigs, it has a direct XLR out that goes into the board. I see that the Rumble 500 is labeled "500W (4Ω)/350W (8Ω" and all I can find for my Line 6 is "300 watt" I'm assuming the double listing 500/350 for the Rumble is based on the ability to run an external cabinet which is something the Line 6 is not set up for. No Ext speaker jack on the Lowdown. And based on this info the Rumble 500 with two 10's would be the "most" comparable output wise to my Line 6, and that the Rumble 200 wouldn't keep pace.

And let me add it's just my personal taste but I greatly prefer a combo setup to a cab/head design. Maybe that limits my choices but it's just what I prefer for setup and hauling.

Thanx


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