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Post subject: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:23 am
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would it be safe to run the Fender Rumble 30 into a mixer using the head phones jack? I noticed there is not a line out - electrically are they the same?


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:50 pm
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I assume you mean into a line input, not a mic input.

In terms of impedance, not ideal but not a problem either. However, a headphone out into a line input is way over a line input's spec in terms of voltage, probably by an order of magnitude. If you keep the amp volume extremely low, and you pad the heck out of the line input (if it has a pad control at all), then you might be able to get away with it. But the levels will be very touchy.

The best way to do it would be to knock the signal down with a simple voltage divider pair. Any amp tech or first year tech school student can do this for you. It can be done with just four resistors, or you can make it variable by adding a stereo potentiometer to the resistor circuit. Including a metal box and jacks, probably $20-25 in parts. Tell whoever does the work you want a 100 ohm load on the amp (i.e. the headphone out circuit), and the output will be working into a 5K-10Kohm load (i.e. the mixer's line input).

You'll also have to account for all the connector differences but that's pretty easy to work out.

Tell the tech to keep everything stereo. In other words, don't sum the L+R headphone outputs and don't sum the output of the two resistor dividers. Stereo in, stereo out. You might be able to get away with summing the Rumble's headphone outputs because they're buffered by 47 ohm resistors, but I would discourage that in the strongest possible terms because it's never good practice to connect two outputs together no matter how highly buffered they are.

Hope this helps.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:37 am
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Perhaps a better solution would be to plug the bass into an A/B switch, and from there run A to the amp, and B to the mixer and run both A+B...


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:36 pm
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I think you mean an ABY switch.

If you go that way, you'll have a gross impedance mismatch regardless of whether you use the mic input or the line input. It simply will not work.

The correct solution for what you want to do is a direct box, which does the impedance conversion. It will let you run into a mixer's mic input and into the amp. You can get them from cheap to expensive. If price is the top concern, go with an active direct box, because most cheap passive direct boxes' transformers are junk at the low end and will bugger your BG signal. I can not overemphasize this: Do not buy a bargain passive direct box, because once you try a decent one, you'll want to use it only as a paperweight or as something to throw at the neighbor's dog crapping on your lawn.

A good cheap active direct box is the ART XDirect. A good passive direct box is the Radial Pro DI. A better passive direct box is the Radial JDI. Depends on your budget.

I use a JDI exclusively and I love it. Cold dead fingers, etc.

Don't forget the extra instrument cord and a mic cable.

Hope this helps.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:48 pm
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Good advise from Craig. For recording I might just spring for a Tech 21 Bass Driver.
Or get an amp with an XLR out.

Plug your bass into the Bass Driver.

Run an XLR to the mixer mic input.

Run a short instrument cable from the Bass Driver to the amp input.

Mike the amp.

Record both the XLR direct feed and the amp mic on separate tracks simultaneously.
Mix the two tracks for best tone.

Sometimes the best sound will be a combination of both tracks. Other times 100% direct or 100% mic.

Oh, and when recording you'll want some sort of compressor also. Often you can use a compressor/limiter feature built into the software, but it also helps to have one in front of the recording input.

The compressor should go in front of the Bass Driver.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:47 pm
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I really appreciate everyone jumping in here. Let me provide a bit more background.

I play Bass, Mandolin, and acoustic guitar. We play in my friends basement, and also out sometimes, and are limited by the number of inputs on the mixer - essentially I am relegated to 1 channel for my instruments, recording is not something we are doing NOW, but we may want that in the future.

we've stopped using AMPS in the basement, as it's too much everything, too much sound, too much feedback, too much warble etc. - so now all instruments are going into the mixer (via DI boxes mind you) - and we have solve many of our problems.

One problem that remains, is the bass is hard to hear on the PA system that the mixer outputs to, so we recommended that I bring the bass amp back into the mix. the only problem is that it doesn't have a LINE OUT - it's a fender rumble 30.

so 2 goals I have are:
* make it easier to play all my instruments without constantly unplugging and plugging in cables.
* bring the bass amp into the equation and run the bass simultaneously into the mixer and the bass amp.

Here is what I was thinking via several ABY boxes.

ABY box # 1
--> Bass into ABY box (Y) via instrument cable (unbalanced)
--> (B) goes into the Bass amp (via balanced cable)
--> (A) goes into second ABY box (short run unbalanced)

so pressing A OR B allows me to route signal to amp OR something else (mixer) and pressing A AND B allows me to route signal to amp AND something else (mixer)

ABY box #2
--> (A) is fed from first ABY box
--> (B) is the electric mandolin instrument cable (yes there is such a thing)
---> (Y) goes out into (yikes a 3rd ABY box)

so pressing A allows the bass to route out Y (sending to the mixer) OR B allows me to play mandolin through to the mixer pressing A AND B should allow me to play bass and someone else play mandolin

ABY box #3
--> (A) is fed from ABY box #2
--> (B) is fed from effect that the acoustic guitar is plugged into (Tech 21 Sans AMP)
--> (Y) goes out to ART TUBE MP - TUBE MP uses a balanced line OUT to the mixer

SO: pressing A allows BASS and/or Mandolin to come in (depending on what's clicked on ABY1 and ABY2) OR B allows acoustic to play while A+B allows all 3 potentially to be routed to the mixer (assuming some friends come over).

only the bass is routed to the AMP, while all else can go to the mixer - via the TUBE MP which is effectively a DI box.


thoughts?


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:52 am
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The row of switches would probably would work as you detailed, but the levels are going to be all over the place.

Instead of the ART TUBE MP have you thought of adding a sub-mixer just for your instruments? With three instruments the sub mixer wouldn't have to be a big mixer, just a small one. So you'd connect all your instruments to the sub-mixer and feed the sub-mixer output in mono to the single available PA channel. This would also give you EQ control over each instrument. Set the main PA mixer input channel EQ flat and you can EQ everything up on the sub-mixer plus balance the levels from all 3 instruments without tweaking the main mixer at all when switching up instruments.

Once you have the sub mixer levels balanced between the instruments use the instrument's volume controls instead of a bunch of ABY switches to turn them on and off. I think that might work better for level balance between the instruments into the PA than simple switches plus give you better EQ control. You could probably even add another instrument as most that have at least 3 inputs actually have four. This also would allow you to try a microphone (an SM57 or similar) on the Rumble 30 instead of a direct line out from it, depending on room acoustics the microphone on the bass amp actually might sound better than a direct out.

Using a sub-mixer to feed the main mixer is something that has been done for drums and keyboards for decades. It is a technically proven and advisable solution for managing and balancing up levels from multiple instruments, or in the case of drums multiple microphones.

Unless you have all the switches, the Tech 21 and the Art MP box already I think the sub-mixer solution would be not only simpler and better balanced volume wise but would also be cheaper. Even if you have the Tech 21 and Art MP box already you could still use them and balance everything perfectly. The Bass amp line out would be handled on a line level input on the mixer and not through a microphone preamp. A sub-mixer will give you way more flexibility and control over three varied instrument inputs than a row of A/B/Y switches.

The PV6 Peavey one is $110, the Behringer 802 is $65 and Behringer has one that is the only 3 channel one I'm familiar with called the 502 that costs a whopping $45. I think I'd still get the Behringer 802 model for $20 more because it has two XLR inputs giving you some room to grow or use it for other things like home recordings in stereo using 2 XLR mic inputs instead of the single XLR mic input on the Behringer 502.

If you think you might eventually try home recording also with it, I'd get one with a USB output too like Peavey PV6 USB model which runs $20 more than the non-USB version of the same mixer at about $130. The Behringer Xenyx 1204 USB model adds some very useful features for about $150 including XLR outs instead of just TRS phone plug outs. USB capable mixers are slightly more expensive but when recording into a Windows computer the USB is handy dandy and gives you a dependable way to input about anything into even laptops with their sub-par sound card functionality.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:36 am
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this is good information BUT it doesn't solve the problem of putting only the bass to the bass amp....if I use a sub mixer - and I output to either a DI box and split the signal or use separate line outs on the submixer - I'd also be send my guitar and mando signals to the bass amp.

how do I accommodate?


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:19 am
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This is WAY over complicated! Dude, just mic the amp. There. Done.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:09 am
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thanks - but micing the bass amp doesn't solve the other problem, I have a mandolin & guitar as well.

all 3 instruments need to share one channel
I don't want to swap cables all the time
I want the bass to go to both the mixer & a bass amp

so far - my complicated set up is the only thing I've seen to accomplish that.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:32 am
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thebottleopeners wrote:
all 3 instruments need to share one channel


:!: WTF? :!:

Each instrument must have their own individual channel!

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One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:40 am
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not true at all. we had a Line6 POD set up which front ends a Line6 Variax, a Fender Electric, and an acoustic, the pod has one out, which goes into a channel.

you don't need every instrument to have it's own separate channel. My guitar, bass, and Mando are not all being played at the same time.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:57 pm
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thebottleopeners wrote:
this is good information BUT it doesn't solve the problem of putting only the bass to the bass amp....if I use a sub mixer - and I output to either a DI box and split the signal or use separate line outs on the submixer - I'd also be send my guitar and mando signals to the bass amp.

how do I accommodate?


It wasn't just good information, it was exactly where you need to go. LOL!

You have one main PA channel input to use. So what we want to do is first connect all 3 instruments to individual input channels on the little sub-mixer. Feed the sub-mixer output to the one available main PA input channel. That is your solution.

I did not say to connect the sub-mixer to the Rumble input at all. If you do what I said to do in my initial post on this thread then only the bass comes out of the amp. Either you didn't follow the logic, grasp the concept or read the entire post. So, I'll review how to do this sub-mixer setup step by step by step.

1. Plug the bass instrument into the bass amp.

2. Feed the bass amp line out to a line level input on the sub-mixer. (In the case of the Rumble 30, you would USE THE EFFECTS SEND JACK ON THE BACK as a direct out. Plugging into the effects send jack will NOT mute the speaker. Fender currently specs the Rumble 30 as having an effects send/receive loop. However previous Rumble 30's do NOT have an effects loop and the effects loop jacks specified now are not even shown in the current online manual for the Rumble 30. If yours has an "Effects Send" jack you are in business. If it is one of the older models without the effects loop jacks labeled "Effects Send" and "Effects Receive" then we'll have to get around that. See "NOTES Section B" that follows the numbered steps for the work-arounds in absence of the Effects Loop feature on your Rumble 30.)

3. Plug the acoustic electric guitar into the Guitar Sans Amp.

4. Connect the acoustic-electric guitar Sans Amp XLR output to the 2nd channel mic input on the sub-mixer using XLR cable.

5. Plug the electric mandolin directly into the 3rd mic channel input on the sub-mixer.

6. Connect the Left Channel sub-mixer output to the line level input of the single MAIN PA INPUT channel they allot you.

7. Balance the levels between all 3 instruments and set an appropriate EQ for each instrument's input on the sub-mixer as necessary using the controls on the sub-mixer. Also adjust the input level on the main PA mixer for best sound.

NOTES:

Part A-Using the Rumble's headphone output to feed the mixer will mute the Rumble's internal speaker. With the Rumble 30 you are not going to use the headphone output as a line out and simultaneously hear the amp's internal speaker. USE THE EFFECTS SEND JACK on the Rumble as the direct out instead because this will not mute the amp's internal speaker. If your Rumble 30 does NOT have the Effects Loop feature, which appears to be a newer Rumble 30 feature, and you do not want to trade amps or buy an amp with a direct output work-arounds are coming in part B. (If you would allow me to make an amp suggestion for this application, trade for a FENDER BRONCO 40 which has an XLR out.)

Part B-You have two other options in the event your Rumble 30 doesn't have an Effects Loop feature and you do not want to trade or upgrade amps.

FIRST OPTION. I list this option first because it is actually the best option sonically. Obtain a Sans Amp Bass Driver or similar device. Plug the bass into the Sans Amp. Feed the XLR out from the Sans Amp to channel 1 mic input on the sub-mixer and the phone output from the Sans Amp to the input of the Rumble combo. You can also use a much cheaper product for this exact same purpose called the Behringer BDI-21. The Behringer BDI-21 works very much like the Tech 21 Sans Amp Bass Driver with one instrument input, one XLR output, one phone plug output to plug into the bass amp along with having EQ/level/drive controls. It is not the quality of the Sans Amp Bass Driver and as I have both units I can say that. The Behringer is $40 street. The SansAmp many times more than $40. I find uses for both. For $40 the Behringer BDI-21 is a good value and can be used exactly like a Sans Amp, but it isn't a Sans Amp. I'd get the power supply for it too instead of using batteries. I say having a Sans Amp type device is the best option because of the balanced XLR output which matches perfectly to the mic preamp on a mixer. It will match to the mic preamp input on the sub-mixer better than the non-balanced effects send on any amp that doesn't have an XLR output. Once you have the Sans Amp type device feeding the PA and the bass amp that replaces STEP 1 and STEP 2 above and you can proceed with Step 3 above.

SECOND OPTION. Mic up the bass amp with something like an SM57 and feed the mic into a XLR mic channel input on your sub-mixer. I don't like this option as much as the Sans Amp/BDI-21 option or getting a more versatile amp, but it is better than nothing. I think any money spent on anything beyond a sub-mixer would be better spent on a Sans Amp Bass Driver or a Behringer BDI-21 or on a more versatile bass amp with an XLR output. I can say with absolute certainty I will never buy a bass combo or head without an XLR out again.

Hope that clarifies everything. I think you got confused about where to connect the sub-mixer output. It goes to the single available PA input channel. If you read my original post again, that is what it says to do. I never said to feed the Rumble with the sub-mixer.

You want to get the signals from all 3 instruments into individual input channels on the sub-mixer and then connect the sub-mixer output ONLY to one main PA mixer channel.

PART C: I saved this for last because it is more complicated a concept. There is also a way using the sub-mixer to plug your bass instrument directly into a mic channel input on the sub-mixer and setting it to feed both the left and right channels of the sub-mixer output. To do this set the pan control on that one channel only to somewhere between full left and full right. Patch the LEFT sub-mixer main output to the PA input channel. Patch the RIGHT sub-mixer output to the padded down input jack on the RUMBLE COMBO, which I think is labeled INPUT B on the Rumble 30 and is padded down already to accommodate an active bass signal. Now the bass signal feeds the RUMBLE from the right sub-mixer channel and the PA from the left sub-mixer channel. The other two instrument channels (mandolin & guitar) should be panned (or set on the "balance" "pan" control) to feed only into the LEFT channel so that they only feed the PA and don't go into the right channel which is feeding the RUMBLE at all. This is a more advanced solution, especially if you don't yet understand how to use the pan control on a mixer. (Turn a Pan knob full left and the signal goes only to the left channel, turn it full right and it goes into the right channel and you can vary it anywhere in between like a balance Left/Right control on a stereo.) This solution doesn't give the bass guitar any bass preamp voicing in front of the PA as such but you can use the EQ controls on the sub-mixer mic preamp to add enough EQ to get by. This solution eliminates the need for a direct out from the Rumble and the need for any sort of Bass Driver device. The problem with it will be getting the level feeding the Rumble right because the level being fed to the Right channel going to the Rumble is going to be much hotter than it may want to receive, so you'll have to experiment to find where to set the pan control on the sub-mixer to get it down to an acceptable level. It will work though.

SUMMARY: Sub-Mixer might be a confusing term due people calling subwoofers SUBS. This has nothing to do with subwoofers at all. You can call it an auxiliary mixer or personal mixer if that makes it clearer. Anyone using a wide assortment of instruments or microphones such as a keyboardist or drummer will often use a sub-mixer, it is a very commonly used solution because it is a good one.

Since you are limited to one PA channel and have 3 very different instrument signals to balance out, a personal/sub/aux mixer is probably the best solution for you, and much better than a row of A/B/Y switches that will not give you any level or EQ control when switching from one instrument to another yielding a very unbalanced sound when switching from instrument to instrument. Once you get your levels balanced and the EQ's set on the personal/sub/aux mixer, then you just pick up the instrument you want to play, turn up the volume on the instrument and play it.

The A/B/Y switch array would work, but the advantages to using a little mixer for all your instruments in front of the PA are many and I think you'll be astounded at how much better a mixer solution would sound compared to a row of A/B/Y switches.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:54 am
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Dave,

The rumble 30 has neither a line out nor an effects loop.

Im going to have to gets more serious amp. I take it this is for solo practice or small venue playing.

Once I do that in going to follow this.

Really appreciate the help and time!

I will post an update.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Rumble 30 into mixer?
Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:41 am
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hey Brother Dave (I actually have a brother Dave by the way).

someone I know is giving me a Rogue RB-50B amp. It has both a line out and effects loop - so this is good news. I'll route using the effects loop.

a question or to clarify on your note above.

1. from the instrument to the amp/di box I would use instrument cable. From the LINEOUT on the AMP and the OUT on the DI box should I use balanced cables (assume 1/4 " cables).

2. you mention to plug the [Martin] acoustic guitar into a SANS AMP - I have an ART Tube MP, that is a DI box,but plug the mandolin directly into the sub-mixer - should I also put the mando also into a DI Box and then run that into the sub mixer?


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