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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:27 am
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Well said Linnin... I am a beginner and play primarily for my own entertainment. Initially amps and effects were not a priority, not until I couldn't coax the sound I was looking for out of the Ampeg BA 25w and Fender Super Champ 2 (I have bass and 6 strings). I have finally settled on the BA-115 combo and just picked up a Fender Blues Jr III which was immediately pleasing.

I've made some redundant pedal choices for both, which I can live with, but it is getting that warm tube sound out of the BA-115 that has now become the focus, or trading up for a tube amp; since I don't gig (yet) hauling that monster isn't an issue (yet). Is there a "magic bullet" pedal out there to warm up the Ampeg? Or do I trade up? Finances can only support so much of this obsessive "hobby".

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:30 am
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Sadly Mike, there is no 'magic pedal' that will turn your china-peg into an all tube fire-breathing SVT from days of yore.

Tech 21 makes some good stuff, but is awfully expensive. I had a little boutique bass combo of there's, a Landmark 60, that I really liked but it died quite young (but after the warranty expired) and unexpectedly. These are no longer made as premature death was apparently a common problem.

I have a ZOOM B3 bass multi-effects pedal that I like very much. Also pricey, but no more than Tech 21. It may be just what you're looking for :idea: It's loaded with many great sounding effects (and some that suck :evil: ); pre-amps (that I've found to be very useful), amps sims that i wasn't interested in at first, but they are really VERY good! And the speaker cab sims are nice. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B3

Another good option, although it may look like a step backwards, is Fender's Bronco 40 bass modeling amp. It's a very good one, with lots of nice sims & effects. Excellent for both practice & recording. Several Bassmen here own them and love them. At $250 what's not to love? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Bronco40

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:11 pm
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I have considered ditching the Ampeg and using it towards something else... so, along those lines let me ask you a dumb beginner's question: would it be a bad thing to play bass through something like the Blues Jr III? Or other tube guitar amp?

Further, there is a music store up the street that has tons of older amps, some of which, I presume must be tube driven... what should I look for, and what typically gose wrong with tube amps, AND, how expensive is it to fix?

Also, I see that Boss makes a pedal (FBM-1 Fender Bassman Pedal) which apparently replicates " the legendary tone of the 1959 Fender Bassman". Thoughts?

I was looking at the Tech 21 stuff and some of the MXR (I have two MXR pedals and haven't been disappointed by them yet).

So, there's that part of the ordeal.

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:45 pm
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mjcolucci7 wrote:
I have considered ditching the Ampeg and using it towards something else... so, along those lines let me ask you a dumb beginner's question: would it be a bad thing to play bass through something like the Blues Jr III? Or other tube guitar amp?


A bass will destroy any guitar amp in short order. Don't do it.

Quote:
Further, there is a music store up the street that has tons of older amps, some of which, I presume must be tube driven... what should I look for, and what typically gose wrong with tube amps, AND, how expensive is it to fix?


VERY expensive to overhaul a tube amp. Tubes alone may run well over $100.

Quote:
Also, I see that Boss makes a pedal (FBM-1 Fender Bassman Pedal) which apparently replicates " the legendary tone of the 1959 Fender Bassman". Thoughts?


Only a 1959 Fender Bassman sounds like a 1959 Fender Bassman. The '59 Bassman Re-Issues are really for guitar and not for bass. Plus A new '59 Bassman Re-Issue is running $1,400. An old 1970's Silverfaced Bassman Ten would be much MUCH better. They are also excellent for guitar and the Fender Rhodes electric piano. 50 all tube watts into 4 10" Jenson woofers. I owned one for about five years. Good enough for band practice. Never really enough for a bar gig, but I played 'em anyway. You're still talking a bunch o' damn dollars.

Quote:
I was looking at the Tech 21 stuff and some of the MXR (I have two MXR pedals and haven't been disappointed by them yet).

So, there's that part of the ordeal.


Rock On Bass Bro!

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:23 pm
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I wouldn't say bass would destroy a guitar amp, just blow a speaker if it's low powered and you crank it. For example: I have a 1982 Fender Super Champ with the Force 10 speaker that's 150 watts, and the amp is 18 watts, and I've ran bass through it with no problem at all. I've read somewhere as long as the speaker has at least 8 times the wattage of the amp's output, then there shouldn't be an issue. Whether or not that's true, I'm not 100% certain, but I never had an issue with mine.

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:22 am
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linnin wrote:
An old 1970's Silverfaced Bassman Ten would be much MUCH better. They are also excellent for guitar and the Fender Rhodes electric piano. 50 all tube watts into 4 10" Jenson woofers.


Not Jensens -- Fender threw Jensen under the bus in 1967 over a pricing dispute.

Bassman Ten's of the initial production run used the alnico CTS driver, similar to that found in contemporary Super Reverbs or Super Six Reverbs. When the amp was re-designed as a 70-watt ultra-linear platform in 1978, ceramic Rola's and Pyle's became the standard speaker though some examples of this version were shipped with the original alnico CTS as OEM drivers.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:10 am
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I had a feeling that's what would happen running a bass through a guitar amp - figured it was better to ask a dumb question then do something dumb and with my luck I'd end up torching the Blues Jr.

I'll keep a lookout for the Bassman(s) - hopefully they won't overcharge like they do on some of their stuff. The thing that is frustrating there is I'd rather do business with an independent, but they can't beat the selection or specials I find at Guitar Center or Musician's Friend.

Anyways, since I have you guys on the line, here is what I'm running as far as bass effects and maybe this is part of the issue?

- Electro-Harmonix LPB-1
- EH Bass Big Muff Pi
- EH Mole
- EH Bassballs
- EH Memory Toy
- MXR Phase 90
- MXR Carbon Copy

I know two delay pedals seems redundant, but I like experimenting with sound a little...

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:53 am
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mjcolucci7 wrote:

Anyways, since I have you guys on the line, here is what I'm running as far as bass effects and maybe this is part of the issue?

- Electro-Harmonix LPB-1
- EH Bass Big Muff Pi
- EH Mole
- EH Bassballs
- EH Memory Toy
- MXR Phase 90
- MXR Carbon Copy

I know two delay pedals seems redundant, but I like experimenting with sound a little...


Seven little stompboxes all in row... :shock: stompboxes add noise to your signal and EHX are notoriously noisey. Some will also cut the balls right out of your signal. The quick easy way to tell is to plug your bass direct to you amp using your very best cable. Adjust bass & amp combo for the very best tone that is both full and rich. Is it still cold; thin, and clipping out? If so, it's your amp. If not then it's the stompboxes.

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:21 am
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A couple of points based on some of the previous posts.

A tube guitar amp can be used for bass, but you can use a combo only if the speaker is good enough. 99.9% of the speakers are NOT good enough. Further the open back guitar combo cabinetry is all wrong for bass. I'd pass on any open backed combo for bass.

The open back is why the '59 Bassman in both original and Reissue versions are both used primarily for guitar or harp now. You can use them for bass and they sound pretty good for recording or home practice but are marginal in a band situation with a drummer. Yes you can use one for bass today and yes it was originally designed for bass, but the open back results in an anemic volume output when compared to about any sealed back/ported cab.

In modern bass amps the preamps and EQ are voiced differently from guitar amps. However back in the 60's till early 70's the only difference between the Marshall SuperBass and the guitar version was the scripting on the panel.

Almost all guitar combos come with speakers barely capable of withstanding guitar tones at near amp capacity volume and should not be used for the far more brutal x-mass demands of bass. Even a few moments of trying one out can ruin a speaker. Besides it will sound really bad anyway most of the time.

The 59 Bassman PEDAL is a guitar pedal not a bass pedal. It generates a ton of noise. A guy I used to play with had one. A total waste of money.

I agree that is a wad of pedals you have there. The plethora of pedals is probably the origin for much of your low end loss. Plug your instrument directly into your BA-115 using a 20 ft or less cable and see if it doesn't have much better tone than running through that maze of pedals. It would about have to have better tone. I have to wonder, all those pedals and no pedal tuner?

I think that is about $700 worth of pedals at least. You could have bought a $700 better amp instead.

Some nosy questions.
1. What kind of instrument is this?
2. What brand/type and length of cable are you using from the bass to the pedal board?
3. What brand/type and length of inter-pedal linkage cables are you using?
4. What kind and length of cable are you using from the pedal board to the amp?

I think there is some tone loss in a bunch of cabling going on too possibly. Try plugging straight into the amp using the best cable you have. See if that helps the tone.

The very LAST thing you need to look at is adding another pedal.


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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:25 am
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brotherdave wrote:
A couple of points based on some of the previous posts.

A tube guitar amp can be used for bass, but you can use a combo only if the speaker is good enough. 99.9% of the speakers are NOT good enough. Further the open back guitar combo cabinetry is all wrong for bass. I'd pass on any open backed combo for bass.

The open back is why the '59 Bassman in both original and Reissue versions are both used primarily for guitar or harp now. You can use them for bass and they sound pretty good for recording or home practice but are marginal in a band situation with a drummer. Yes you can use one for bass today and yes it was originally designed for bass, but the open back results in an anemic volume output when compared to about any sealed back/ported cab.

In modern bass amps the preamps and EQ are voiced differently from guitar amps. However back in the 60's till early 70's the only difference between the Marshall SuperBass and the guitar version was the scripting on the panel.

Almost all guitar combos come with speakers barely capable of withstanding guitar tones at near amp capacity volume and should not be used for the far more brutal x-mass demands of bass. Even a few moments of trying one out can ruin a speaker. Besides it will sound really bad anyway most of the time.

The 59 Bassman PEDAL is a guitar pedal not a bass pedal. It generates a ton of noise. A guy I used to play with had one. A total wasted of money.

I agree that is a wad of pedals you have there. The plethora of pedals is probably the origin for much of your low end loss. Plug your instrument directly into your BA-115 using a 20 ft or less cable and see if it doesn't have much better tone than running through that maze of pedals. It would about have to have better tone. I have to wonder, all those pedals and no pedal tuner?

I think that is about $700 worth of pedals at least. You could have bought a $700 better amp instead.

Some nosy questions.
1. What kind of instrument is this?
2. What brand/type and length of cable are you using from the bass to the pedal board?
3. What brand/type and length of inter-pedal linkage cables are you using?
4. What kind and length of cable are you using from the pedal board to the amp?

I think there is some tone loss in a bunch of cabling going on too possibly. Try plugging straight into the amp using the best cable you have. See if that helps the tone.

The very LAST thing you need to look at is adding another pedal.


+1000

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Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:47 pm
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Yes... I'll be the first to admit there wasn't a great deal of forethought into how I assembled this rig... it started out with a Geddy Lee Jazz and '52 re-issue blond Tele and has grown into a rather large collection. The two original amps were for the purpose of being able to hear what I was practicing and not for any sort of high quality.

I didn't realize that pedals (specifically EH) affected the sound that much and will start again from the ground up by plugging directly into the amp.

The two basses I'm using right now are the Geddy Lee Jazz (modified with noiseless pickups) and a stock FSR Precision.

The cables are all pretty fresh, and I have considered building a board, but for now the pedals are daisy-chained with a combination of Fender, Monster and generic "6 right angled connectors. I'm using Fender 18' cables on the front and back ends.

Thanks again guys!

---
On the 6-string side, I'm favoring an Esquire plugged into a Blues Jr. III which seems to be perfect sound wise.

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:38 pm
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mjcolucci7 wrote:
Yes... I'll be the first to admit there wasn't a great deal of forethought into how I assembled this rig... it started out with a Geddy Lee Jazz and '52 re-issue blond Tele and has grown into a rather large collection. The two original amps were for the purpose of being able to hear what I was practicing and not for any sort of high quality.

I didn't realize that pedals (specifically EH) affected the sound that much and will start again from the ground up by plugging directly into the amp.

The two basses I'm using right now are the Geddy Lee Jazz (modified with noiseless pickups) and a stock FSR Precision.

The cables are all pretty fresh, and I have considered building a board, but for now the pedals are daisy-chained with a combination of Fender, Monster and generic "6 right angled connectors. I'm using Fender 18' cables on the front and back ends.

Thanks again guys!

---
On the 6-string side, I'm favoring an Esquire plugged into a Blues Jr. III which seems to be perfect sound wise.


Well sort of depends on which Fender cable. There are some really good ones, especially the newer high end ones and also some marginal ones. I have some of the marginal Fender ones (Electro-Volt) from like 10 years ago I use for rehearsals. They were made by Whirlwind and are super durable but not especially great. Ok for practice though. As a general rule, the longer the cable run the higher the capacitance you are playing through. When using two 18' cables plus the little mixed bag of pedal cables then you are playing through nearly 40 feet of cable. I'd trim both runs as much as possible and use low capacitance cables for instrument to board and board to amp. This is not as critical with an active instrument as cable capacitance impacts a boosted signal to a far lesser degree than a miniscule passive signal. If you can only afford one low capacitance cable, put it from the instrument to the board or just plug it directly into the amp without going through the board, then see if you don't get far better tone. I'm not crazy about Noiseless pickups, but even they should sound more open with a shorter cable run than 40 feet.


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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:46 pm
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Brother Dave - I Absolutely had not considered the effect the additional cables would have on the signal. I've invested in a few of the jack couplers v. the "6 patch cables.

I've become convinced the amp and I are no loner a good match, so... back it goes and I'll be able to put that money towards something different: a hybrid bass combo amp.

So, naturally my next question to everyone is: which brand should I give serious consideration to, and since I'm playing primarily for myself, what size/output should I look for? I think my range is between $600 - $700.

Thanks again guys!

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:53 pm
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Best of Luck to you in your search, Mike.
I like Genz-Benz Streamliners, but they are high wattage class D power section heads with a unique three tube pre-amp. No combos and you're talking $1,500-$2,000 for a nice rig. 8)

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Post subject: Re: Tube v. Solid State
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:51 pm
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Well... life is a compromise (of sorts) at times and filled with targets of opportunity (of sorts) both of which seemingly aligned today resulting in the purchase of a new Fender Rumble 350 combo.

I tested it against an Ampeg Portaflex (port-a-sh!t more like) and it sounded crisp with depth. The floor model was all they had on hand, so I'm waiting on a new one to ship in. I saved $100 off the tag price from the get-go and traded in some of my least favorite pedals.

So... we'll see...

Thanks everyone for your support!

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