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Post subject: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:42 am
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We all have different ideas as to what constitutes 'good tone' for our Fender electric bass guitars. I happen to like a full rich tone with tons of sonic texture that soars as high as it goes low and is very fat in the middle with thick juicy mid-range tone you can cut with a Buck knife. And I want purcussive attack that as closely resembles 'The Big Bang' as is physically possible. I'm not asking for too much am I?

One thing that really gripes my $@!, is the 'Mud Bucket Sound'. You can get this sound very easily with the very cheapest of basses and lowest quality amps. It's the very high dollar rigs that some members of The Mud Bucket Brigade use that have me looking at the floor and shaking my head.

A couple of good recent examples:
I like to support local music whenever I can. In one band the bass player had a very nice Fender American Standard 5-string Jazz running through a 1,000 watt Hartke rig with 2 X 410 Hartke cabs. Total Bucket of Mud. No Tone At All! Low blurry sounds just kind of vomited out of the speakers. A $5,000.00 rig that sounded like total crap.

In another band the bass player had a nice Warwick Corvette through a GK rig with a 410 GK cab. Again total bucket of mud. No tone. No definition at all. No attack. Just very loud mud. Here a $3,500 - $4,000.00 rig that sounded like complete garbage.

The sad part is that both of these expensive rigs were purely capable of sounding great, but their owners chose to sound like fifty cent buckets of mud.

Just shaking my head. :?

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:33 pm
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SKcoppertele wrote:
some people (such as myself) like that sound, it all depends on what you're playing. a nice rumbly low end with rolled off smooth highs, like Paul McCartney's hofner sound. but I also love a snappy high end sound with crunchy mids, like geddy lees Rick and Jazz type sound.


No. I'm talking ZERO highs and scooped mids. More than likely negative highs and most definiately negative mids with boosted lows. All Mud. NO TONE.

Paulie's Hoffner has nice attack and definition. Plus the Hofner he uses on tour is a total custom build, but that's quite all right. I do like it. :)

If you sound like Paulie, that's a good thing. But if you're a member of the toneless & brainless 'Mud Bucket Brigade', chin up brother because there's always the chance for redemption! :)

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:01 pm
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As modern bass gear goes, I never thought much of Hartke or Galien-Kruger (basically boutique-priced Behringer IMO).

OTOH, I don't think I've ever heard a bad sounding SWR rig, especially those of the pre-Fender era.

Markbass builds some pretty nice amps as well.

JMOOC

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:23 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
As modern bass gear goes, I never thought much of Hartke or Galien-Kruger (basically boutique-priced Behringer IMO).

OTOH, I don't think I've ever heard a bad sounding SWR rig, especially those of the pre-Fender era.

Markbass builds some pretty nice amps as well.

JMOOC

Arjay


OK Arjay wtf does "JMOOC" stand for????

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:44 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
As modern bass gear goes, I never thought much of Hartke or Galien-Kruger (basically boutique-priced Behringer IMO).

OTOH, I don't think I've ever heard a bad sounding SWR rig, especially those of the pre-Fender era.

Markbass builds some pretty nice amps as well.

JMOOC

Arjay


Well,................. no accounting for taste. I never thought much of SWR myself.

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:08 pm
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Mr. Nylon wrote:
I never thought much of SWR myself.


If I were a bass player (and I'm not) I'd play what my brother plays......

Vintage Sunn Coliseums or Model T's and vintage Acoustic 370/371's.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:50 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Mr. Nylon wrote:
I never thought much of SWR myself.


If I were a bass player (and I'm not) I'd play what my brother plays......

Vintage Sunn Coliseums or Model T's and vintage Acoustic 370/371's.

Arjay


Agreed, very much so sir. Image

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:35 pm
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There are many other variables besides brand and configuration. I would say brand is only 5-10% of the equation. The rest involves:

- How the amp controls are adjusted.

- How the instrument controls are adjusted.

- The condition of the drivers.

- The possibility that the drivers are replacements unsuited to the cabs.

- The interaction between the stage rig and the PA. Large PA + large stage rig = Big Trouble but most people still don't have a clue.

- Where the player is playing on the instrument.

- How the player is playing the instrument.

- The quality of the direct box. There's a lot of junk out there just waiting to bugger your DI feed for you at a price you can afford.

- If the cab is mic'd, the quality of the mic, its suitability to BG use, and the angle and distance it's working at.

- The presence or absence of subsonic filtering, both in the amp and in the PA. And the presence or absence of a player and sound man who actually know how to use one.

- The physical configuration of the PA bass bins, if there's more than one.

And probably more.

Hope this helps.

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:56 pm
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Mr. Nylon wrote:
,................. no accounting for taste. I never thought much of SWR myself.


I actually quite like the Sound & tonal options that I get from my SWR rig, ......... :)


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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:42 am
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As Craig mentioned above, setup is everything and without a little research and understanding of how sound in general is transmitted and the variables that can affect sound, a setup may be less than acceptable. Don't rely on human ears alone to get it right. Most touring bands have an equipment tech with metering that monitors the audio frequency spectrum and shows on a display as to where soft spots and nulls are located both on-stage and in the audience, so adjustments can be made to speaker levels, radiation angles and positioning.

If you do your own venue setups as a player, you will need at least one other person to assist - by walking the venue while you are setting things up so as many audience areas as possible will be covered with rich, full spectrum sound.

What you can do initially is to give yourself aa headstart by using the best quality equipment that you can afford at your level and set things up so the best sound possible from your equipment is heard. Once you have your setup nailed down, make notes in a set-up book or digitally to record that particular setup for that particular venue so if you go back there, things will be easier and less time consuming the next time.

I use a digital voice recorder to make personal notes about setup's and transcribe those notes later on into a digital or paper file that can be printed. Your audience is paying to see the performance and it is your responsibility to make sure that they have a good audio experience.


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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:23 am
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PaducahLuke wrote:
Your audience is paying to see the performance and it is your responsibility to make sure that they have a good audio experience.


An excellent point that cannot be over emphasized!

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:44 am
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That's true, outdoor stadiums are a whole different sound, than an indoor arena, convention centers, etc.

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:12 pm
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If you want to hear some seriously great electric bass guitar tone listen to Esperanza Spaulding playing her Fender Jazz Bass. I am able to get a very simular tone signature with my hot rodded '76 Precision and Rumble 75 combo. Very nicely complex with a purcussive attack and meaty definition. Very juicy indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDyzMmh9EUA&list=RD022aRC3YY3svs

8)

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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:01 pm
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I have been in love with the tone of Greg Lake's Fender Jazz since high school. I've pretty much gotten this tone nailed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8bSr8RnU4

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One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Good Tone Vs The Mud Bucket
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Players wallowing in the mud are often there because they lack skill or confidence and are hoping to cover at least some of their mistakes, shortcomings and lack of actual talent in thick gooey mud.

Other times it isn't the player's fault at all! They may have their amp set right for full range tone on stage, but are using it mainly as a stage monitor, so they have no idea that the sound tech has the bass EQ fragged.

Many PA arrays and especially your garden variety PA crossovers and subs just do not handle the subtleties of a complex bass tone well.

Sound techs rarely bother to balance the bass tone. So long as they can hear it they are happy with it. They don't care much otherwise. Actually many of them THINK it is SUPPOSED to sound like mud with just boom boom tones and nothing else.

I agree with SK about not needing a big stage rig anymore to an extent. I mostly gig with a tiny combo and a direct out to the PA. However that won't work in all situations because you are not always going to have an A-Number-One PA system and decent tech. When I was gigging a lot it was obvious to me when our normal tech was off and someone was subbing for the usual guy. The tech is like an extra member of your band and when they are absent things don't go quite like usual.

Good points about scoping out the venue when it is possible and note-taking as well. Notes come in handy in case you make it back there.

Another thing is that an interior venue space sounds very different at sound check than it does once it is filled with people. So even if you have it perfect at sound check it rarely if ever is going to sound right when you kick off the actual performance.


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