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Post subject: Surge Protector
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:27 am
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A question for the people who are handy with Amplifiers .... how resilient is your average guitar amplifier to power surges? The reason I ask is because a surge protector can only protect your equipment so many times before it becomes ineffective. But there's no way to tell how many more hits it can take, or how many hits it's already taken. So do you replace your surge protector periodically? How often? Or skip it altogether??

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:45 pm
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It depends on what you call a hit.
If you're talking lightning you can forget the surge protector helping you.

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:33 pm
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Some surge protector have a led ( light) to show if they are working or not .


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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:39 pm
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I can't speak on a tube amp, but my Mustang is on a protector.

I live in the "Lightning Capital of the World", Tampa FL. I have a whole house surge protector that was installed by the electric company and individual protectors for electronics. All of them have a LED indicator that shows the units are ok, when the indicator light goes out it is not working and needs to be replaced.

If you get a direct hit, you are most likely toast, no matter what you install, but near by strikes can induce voltages on the the power lines that can fry any equipment not on a protector.

8)

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:09 pm
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So if you get one that has an indicator light, you will know if it's functioning at all. But then there's this:

It's all about the joules.

Surge protectors offer protection in amounts called joules. Think of this like a reservoir of protection. If a product has 1,000 joules of protection, that means it can take ten 100 joule hits, or one 1,000 joule hit. Generally, the more joules the better.

How do you know how many joules a protectors has left, or if the rating is even accurate? Well, you don't.


From: cnet link

So doesn't that make the indicator light about as useful as a gas gauge on a car that only tells you if there's gas at all, but not how much? :?

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:30 pm
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Hmm, I never thought about this, since I've yet to have any issues (knock on wood.) I use them for all of my amps and electronics and also have protective outlets in my rehearsal room installed.

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:31 pm
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I had to replace a surge protector once. I was getting a humming noise like the outlet was bad. I ran the amp straight into the outlet, and the sound was gone. I tied another surge protector, no hum. They will eventually need to be replaced.

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:05 am
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Mr. Nylon wrote:
They will eventually need to be replaced.


:lol:

The question is can we know before it do not work ?


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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:14 am
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strings10927 wrote:
So if you get one that has an indicator light, you will know if it's functioning at all. But then there's this:

It's all about the joules.

Surge protectors offer protection in amounts called joules. Think of this like a reservoir of protection. If a product has 1,000 joules of protection, that means it can take ten 100 joule hits, or one 1,000 joule hit. Generally, the more joules the better.

How do you know how many joules a protectors has left, or if the rating is even accurate? Well, you don't.


From: cnet link

So doesn't that make the indicator light about as useful as a gas gauge on a car that only tells you if there's gas at all, but not how much? :?


The light tells you it is still functioning, what you are asking for is not possible or practical because you will never know how powerful a surge will be, it could be one joule or 1000 or 10,000. You are not going to find any device that can protect you from everything 100% of the time.


Electronic components fail eventually. You don’t have a meter on your TV that tells you how many times you can watch it before it breaks.

Here is a good website on how they work:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/ev ... tector.htm

8)

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:26 am
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omar59 wrote:
You are not going to find any device that can protect you from everything 100% of the time.

A high quality UPS should protect everything behind it 100% of the time (think computer servers). But they are too heavy and bulky to bring to a gig. I guess I'm questioning the point in using a surge protector at all. I certainly don't periodically throw it out and buy a new one.

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:12 am
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A good quality surge suppressor is just like a good quality guitar or amp, if you really want one that works and last a long time, buy a quality one.

The one that (SK) showed is a very good one, I use one similar but a few model years older and that one replaced the one I had for 15 years. Go quality and stop worrying....my old one just got beat up, so I replaced it but still worked fine.

Also if you are just playing at home, unplug your amp when not in use.

FWIW

T2

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:25 am
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Ok, this is just my own $.02 and own experience on this whole conversation...as always, please use my comments ONLY for you feel they are worth.

As BMW already suggested, first we need to define what type of surge or hit we're talking about. Starting with a worse case scenario, let's assume we're talking about lightening. As BMW already said, a "surge protector" will NOT help you in the event of the lightening strike...unless you have one the size of a car, it's unlikely that even a UPS will do much. Here's the way one of my college professor's explained it - a bolt of lightening can travel MILES through infinite resistance. Do you REALLY think a stupid little plastic box hooked up to the end of your plug is going to make a difference?

The fact of the matter is that as a former hardware tech, I've seen equipment that was hooked up to moderate sized UPS backups and STILL fried. In short, if the concern is lightening, your best singular bet is to unplug your gear during electrical storms or simply take out some sort of insurance on your gear so that IF it fries, you can get it replaced (and if you gig, insurance isn't a bad idea anyways since that's where most gear gets stolen anyways).

Now with the lightening issue aside, there are obviously other forms of electrical surges. For example when the power comes back on after a power failure. It really depends on the amount of surge. Again as a former tech, I've seen surges of this nature that have fried equipment in people's home ranging from tv's and computers to refrigerators, washers and dryers (if you really wish to know the extent of such things, talk to a few insurance agents...they'll tell ya first hand). Again in this sort of situation, a UPS is unlikely to save your guitar amp and a "surge protector", REGARDLESS OF THE QUALITY is unlikely to do anything but fry right along with your gear.

The fact of the matter is that there's just no way to protect your gear 100% of the time, short of just leaving it unplugged. That said, guitar amps as a general rule are actually pretty hardy devices. Many, if not most guitar amps usually have pretty beefy coils and power caps and such and can take quite a bit..anything that's really worth protecting, can generally stand up to a fair bit of electrical instability (short of what's already been mentioned) and cheaper amps of course are usually easy enough to replace either way.

With that all said, personally, I just don't worry about things like a surge protector...it's been my experience that a decent little circuit tester will do more for you than anything such as a surge protector EVER will. They make some wonderful little plug-in testers that will tell you if the socket is wired correctly - I keep one in my gig bag as not all clubs have the best electrical sockets. I also keep a decent little VOM in my gig bag as well...if ya REALLY want to know what's going on at the electric socket, a good little volt meter will usually tell you if there's a problem. Certainly some gear is a bit more sensitive than others...I do have a small "rack" of gear for the PA and for that I do use a "power conditioner" as some of those devices are only 12 volt units, however when it comes to your average guitar amp...I really just don't worry about it too much at all. Yea, an amp -can- fry, but then you could also step off the curb and get hit by a passing bus.

I can't speak to other people's experiences or other parts of the world, but here in Northern Ohio, in the 30+ years I've been playing and all the gigs I've played in those years, I've only had -1- problem with bad electrical...and that was a grad party at a private residence where something was really screwed up with the wiring in the house...and a surge protector or UPS wouldn't have changed that...it is however the reason I carry the socket tester and VOM now. I've ran into a bad outlet here and there, but for the most part, in most well populated cities (here in the US at least), there aren't usually too many problems at all. I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I strongly suspect that with older amps, you probably have a greater chance of the amp failing due to natural wear and tear or "user error" (wrong impedance speakers) than any real danger of external electrical problems.

As far as surge protectors go, it doesn't really hurt anything to have one inline if you really feel the need to spend the money on one, but people REALLY need to understand the nature of electricity and that these devices, despite their supposed quality, just don't really do much at all. The singular best way to protect your gear is to simply unplug it during an electrical storm or power outage and such and if you have a fair degree of cash invested, make sure you have insurance as well. Remember...a lot of those devices may claim to "guarantee" you equipment up to $xx,000, but GOOD LUCK trying to collect on that...if you're really THAT concerned about such damage to your equipment, get a real insurance policy to be safe.

Again just my own personal opinions.


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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:59 am
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That a surge protector doesn't protect against everything is not a rational reason for not using one. Seat belts and even air bags won't save you if you go 120 mph into a tree, but that doesn't mean they're useless.

A decent UPS is far more useful than a surge protector, though, because you're filtered from the mains by the battery. You don't have to worry about other ground loops than those that may occur on your side of the UPS. And if the mains circuit jumps around between 115 and 125 V, you still get a consistent 120V out. And if there are brownouts, even those annoying 1/4-second blips when central air systems kick in, you won't notice a thing.
Sure, they're heavier, but compared to an amp, not so much.

But if you can't afford or don't want to lug a UPS, a surge protector, preferably one with ground fault isolation, will not hurt. They're cheap and light enough, and many of them make it more convenient to plug in warts too.


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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:17 am
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Surge protectors are more about protecting your equipment than you. As electricity travels from service to your amp, it doesn't flow in a constant rate. It pulses, sometimes stronger sometimes weaker within a certain range. This is what hurts the longevity of your amp and/or your electronic equipment. They are designed to receive a calibrated amount of voltage. But that doesn't happen due to varying forces fromn high demand to line resistance etc...etc.
The surge protector like APR flatlines that electrical input. So your equipment doesn't get sudden overcharges which strain components and severely reduce their lifespans.

They do function as safety valves, but only up to a certain power ( no puns).
The idea is to have them in the chain to reduce premature failure of your amps components. Especially at a venue that has old service wiring.

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Post subject: Re: Surge Protector
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:07 pm
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The usual model for lightning is that a region of a storm cloud becomes heavily ionized, which in turn ionizes objects below it. If the field strength (due to the ionization) becomes high enough, a path through the air in between will suffer a dielectric breakdown and become ionized, which means the resistance drops rapidly and it becomes conductive instead. At this point, a capacitive discharge (the lightning strike) occurs along the ionized (conducting) path.

I use surge protectors for all of my electronics. Just make sure the ones you use have a big enough equipment protection warranty to cover everything you have plugged into them.

And if you are that worried about it,
T2Stratman wrote:
... unplug your amp when not in use.


And finally, don't play during lightning storms! :P

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