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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:05 pm
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Retroverbial, thanks for the info on the aged swamp wood. Good to know.

Lightnin MN, that is really interesting on the "Telebration Series Empress Telecaster, a limited run made from Paulownia wood." I've got a Strat and an LP. I've often thought maybe my next guitar ought to be a Tele. I need to think about going that way or a Semi-hollow body like a 335. Lot's to think about.

Eroot64, thanks for your comment and I am staying positive. In April I had way more than a fusion. I had lumbar 4-5 fusion, L4 laminectomy and L5 laminectomy and laminoforaminotomy and he put in a rod and screws at L4-5. It was about a 4 hour procedure. Now he is doing about the same things at L3/L4! I know that I am going to be miserable for a month or so. But I've been miserable for two years! :cry: Thanks again for the encouraging remarks.

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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:23 pm
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Hang in there, "CORG" (chubby old retired guy).

I hate to recommend any instrument from the competition but you might explore the Gibby ES339 option. They're light and small (smaller than a 335 anyway).

I suffer back issues myself (too many government-sponsored parachute jumps) so I can definitely empathize with your plight.

Rawk on!

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:10 pm
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PRS has a very interesting video on tone-woods and Paul goes into a lot of detail about weight, density and stiffness. He details how stiff and light are desirable attributes for resonance and how stiff and heavy are desirable for sustain. In all cases you want the wood stiff. Easy now. That's not a sexual connotation there, boys. I have the video on DVD since it came with my guitar when I bought it but I have not been able to find it on YouTube.

However, while searching for it just now I did discover a real gem of a video which has the potential to permanently end the tone-wood debate. It's a lengthy video and a little brainy at times but most people should be able to understand the effort the guy puts into removing all variables from the argument except one, the wood.


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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:43 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
...........you might explore the Gibby ES339 option. They're light and small (smaller than a 335 anyway)..........

I was going to suggest the same, or the Epiphone version.
Sweetwater now gives the specifics of individual guitars, including exact weight. I bought one (a tele) a year or so back and picked the heaviest one they had because I thought it would sustain best. Maybe it does, but that was dumb, dumb, dumb! And I can't say it does sustain more.

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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:30 am
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This is just my own $.02 worth here...please use my opinions only for what you feel they are worth.

As some have suggested, heavier bodies do as a general rule tend to have better sustain...on that issue alone, it tends to come down to density. While the OP mentioned 2 anvils, I think the analogy I enjoyed the most was a large chunk of granite! LOL!!! That said, hardware can also be a big factor as well...case in point being the mid to low end Strats with those half size zinc alloy trem blocks that just suck the sustain right out of the instrument. While I'd never choose to have a chunk of granite or an anvil slung around my neck, I do tend to try and make sure that my instruments have decent bridges, tuners, etc...it really does make a big difference. I would also add that in situations where I need some remarkable sustain, I'm not above using a decent compressor pedal either. A comp pedal will NOT make up for an instrument that has poor sustain, but it WILL make a guitar with otherwise decent sustain just sing as constant as the Northern wind 8) .

Regarding tone and such however, personally I feel it's more about the individual piece of wood more than the species or other factors regarding the wood itself. As the OP already observed, yes, wood varies from type to type, tree to tree and even slab to slab. That said, I've seen instances where someone has made a decent instrument from non-traditional woods such as red oak (I once hear a PHENOMENAL bass made from red oak) and in a fairly recent thread, someone pointed to a guy who made a decent instrument out of old pallet wood. I would also point out (as I have on other occasions) that in those early years, Leo Fender's choice of ash and alder weren't really driven by their qualities as a "tone wood". Here some 60 odd years after the fact, it's easy for some folks to sit around a tout the glory of alder as a tone wood, however the fact of the matter is that Leo and friends first used these woods mainly because they were easy to work with (for mass production), looked nice and because they were plentiful and affordable at the time. In fact I've even read that they had considered using pine in those earliest days, however thought the wood to be too soft for use in what was intended to be a working musician's instrument. How good any of those species of woods might have sounded in an "electric guitar" was probably pretty low on the original priority list.

While this is debated and analyzed...nearly to the point of ad nauseum, many people (myself included) tend to feel that regardless of the specific genus of body wood, the PICKUPS tend to play a much greater roll in how an electric instrument sounds. People can toss the attributes of various tone woods back and forth all day, however it's been my experience that a decent set up pickups will typically make even a cheap chunk of wood sound pretty good, where as the finest slab of tone wood imaginable is gonna sound like crap with inferior pickups (same goes double for amps!).

In other words, when it comes to "tone" as it applies to any specific chunk of wood, I think that a lot of people really get too obsessive about it as a whole. I have instruments made of alder, poplar, agathis, basswood etc., and while granted, all have been modified to one degree or another (such as replacement pickups and hardware, etc), all are just great sounding instruments. In fact, of the 10 Strats I currently own, the one that has the best "vintage" sound is actually the '93 MIM "Squier Series" with the bass wood body and GFS pickups...she's really an amazing sounding guitar. On the issue of tone as it compares with weight, I really wouldn't get to wound up about it at all. Subjective opinions aside as they apply to tone, if guitar "x" sounds better than guitar "y" to a given individual, I'd probably look at variables OTHER than the instrument weight (pickups, hardware, amps, etc).

Now this brings me to my comments and opinions on weight. As others have already alluded to, let's face it - gravity is a harsh Mistress! LOL! Yes, there was a time many years ago when I was MUCH younger, when I didn't mind a heavier slab of lumber slung over my shoulder for a few hours at a time (as can be witnessed with my Kay P-bass, which is still a seriously hefty old gal), however in the here and now, yea...regardless of tone, sustain and other such considerations, I'd be extremely reluctant to wear a heavy instrument on stage for a 4 hour gig. Most nights I can handle the weight of most average Strats (usually around 7 to 8 lbs), however anything much heavier than that starts to cause a fair degree of pain after a while. Tone is great, sustain is wonderful, but being able to make it to 2 in the morning on a Saturday night and have something left to break the gear down and load it into the back of the van - priceless. Let's just say that it's rather amazing how pragmatic one's priorities become as one gets older.

So with all of this in mind, my suggestion (as always) is to simply find/play the instrument that sounds best to your own ears and feels best in your own hands...and if it really is too heavy for you to play, then either find a different instrument or adjust your priorities accordingly.

Again just my own $.02...I hope it helps.


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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:16 am
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This might be a little strange, but I am finding myself gravitating towards instruments that are less ergonomical as I get older.

My first few electric guitars (less one) had Strat-style double-cutaway bodies with "Comfort Contour" bodies...

All were fairly light-weight (with the hardtail mahogany-bodied G&L F100 being the heaviest and the fiesta red Strat being the lightest), and all were comfy for long set lists/gigs.

Later, I acquired a Telecaster, which had a poplar body with an ash veneer. I don't know if those woods are usually heavy, or if it's just this one, but she's the heaviest of the herd (outside of the brass-bodied resonator and the bass--more on that later)...it also has the standard Tele body, without any "Comfort Contours". On top of these "less comfortable" features, the action and playability is a bit "stiffer" than my other guitars, especially compared to my Strat.

Yet, I prefer the feel of the Telecaster over the others...when playing it, I feel like I can "dig in" and play a little harder, without fear of damaging or breaking anything. I'm not a thrasher or even rough on my instruments, but the Tele just feels more durable.
I would compare it to wearing a pair of leather boots versus a pair of mesh tennis shoes...the tennis shoes are lighter and more comfortable, but if I need to walk through mud or kick something, the boots are the better choice.

I still play (and love) my alder-bodied Stratocaster and my mahogany-bodied F100, but the Tele is the go-to axe for most situations.

All of them have similar (qualities of) sustain, though the Strat seems a bit more resonant.

Likewise, I prefer the feel of my (VERY heavy, non-Comfort Contoured-bodied, plywood/laminated/whatever) Ampeg Big Stud Bass over the feel of my friend's high-end Fender Jazz bass or cheaper Ibanez Soundgear bass...even though those are both lighter, with more comfortable bodies.

...this is even more curious, because several years ago, I had a C5/C6/C7 fusion, to be followed by a rotator cuff and labrum repair surgery in my right shoulder (10 months later). For a long time afterward, I would feel it when I over-exerted at all...yet, these heavier instruments actually became even more comfortable.

Recently, I have become enamored with the Fender Modern Player Thinline Deluxe...
Thinline, and thus much lighter than my Telecaster, but still the same body shape (i.e., no comfort contours)...and after playing a dozen or more of these particular axes, I can reliably say that I love the feel of this (newer) model as much as my current Telecaster. Maybe the comfort zone is related to the body shape moreso than the body weight?

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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:24 am
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lomitus wrote:
That said, hardware can also be a big factor as well...case in point being the mid to low end Strats with those half size zinc alloy trem blocks that just suck the sustain right out of the instrument.

Wood is an excellent trem blocker. :)

The pickup mounting also affects sustain and tone, to a small degree. If the pickups are pickguard mounted, you will lose a small amount of sustain compared to hard body mounted pickups. Can't do much about that on a Strat, but Teles come in both varieties.


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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:36 am
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arth1 wrote:
lomitus wrote:
That said, hardware can also be a big factor as well...case in point being the mid to low end Strats with those half size zinc alloy trem blocks that just suck the sustain right out of the instrument.

Wood is an excellent trem blocker. :)

So is a stack of quarters/coins...I blocked the tremolo on my Strat for less than $2.00! :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:55 am
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The heaviest guitar I ever played was my friends Les Paul. I don't know what model it was (this was a long time ago) but man that thing was too much for me. My newest electric guitar is the heaviest I've ever owned - an Epiphone BB King Lucille. It's up there with the 'Paul. But it's so big and beautiful.Image

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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:36 am
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matonanjin wrote:
Retroverbial, thanks for the info on the aged swamp wood. Good to know.

Lightnin MN, that is really interesting on the "Telebration Series Empress Telecaster, a limited run made from Paulownia wood." I've got a Strat and an LP. I've often thought maybe my next guitar ought to be a Tele. I need to think about going that way or a Semi-hollow body like a 335. Lot's to think about.

Eroot64, thanks for your comment and I am staying positive. In April I had way more than a fusion. I had lumbar 4-5 fusion, L4 laminectomy and L5 laminectomy and laminoforaminotomy and he put in a rod and screws at L4-5. It was about a 4 hour procedure. Now he is doing about the same things at L3/L4! I know that I am going to be miserable for a month or so. But I've been miserable for two years! :cry: Thanks again for the encouraging remarks.

I was a surgical assistant for years, Always hated to see hardware going in someones back, made me feel like we were working on a car. Really sucked when they did my surgery because I knew every move they would make. I know what you mean, any surgery beats the ongoing pain.


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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:07 pm
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Eroot64 wrote:
I was a surgical assistant for years, Always hated to see hardware going in someones back, made me feel like we were working on a car. Really sucked when they did my surgery because I knew every move they would make. I know what you mean, any surgery beats the ongoing pain.

Well, you know what I'm talking about then if you're an ex-surgical tech. I'm also from healthcare. We know every move they make and also the opportunities for error!!! :shock: :roll:

I see you're from Las Vegas. My wife just got back from there on business. She goes there twice a year and usually the winter one I go with to celebrate our anniversary. 2016 I'll let you know when I'm coming and we'll jam! :wink:

Thanks again.

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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:52 pm
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matonanjin wrote:
Eroot64 wrote:
I was a surgical assistant for years, Always hated to see hardware going in someones back, made me feel like we were working on a car. Really sucked when they did my surgery because I knew every move they would make. I know what you mean, any surgery beats the ongoing pain.

Well, you know what I'm talking about then if you're an ex-surgical tech. I'm also from healthcare. We know every move they make and also the opportunities for error!!! :shock: :roll:

I see you're from Las Vegas. My wife just got back from there on business. She goes there twice a year and usually the winter one I go with to celebrate our anniversary. 2016 I'll let you know when I'm coming and we'll jam! :wink:

Thanks again.

That would be great, I get comps to lots of shows , maybe I can hook you up with some tickets. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:18 pm
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I'd sure like to hear a report from someone who's played one of these Aluminum jobbies...

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My buddy Bob picked up a $49 "disney" strat (with a mini-amp) at the Dallas NAMM show a few years ago...

...std Hello Kitty platform...about 3/4 size...nearly a foot shorter...and half the weight of a normal strat...

...he travels and it's his #1 practice choice for airtravel...of the 15 or 17 (?) guitars he's got...

Image


and he'll bring one of his homemade AC/DC Art Deco MicroCube handheld amps...

...and it all fits in his overhead bag...that's lightweight...portable and covers his Ole Timey C&W just fine! :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:59 am
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Miami Mike wrote:
Strap on a Fender J or P bass for awhile then tell me how
heavy your guitar is. :D

My Tele bass barely hits the 5 pound mark :D


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Post subject: Re: Opinions on guitar weight "Heavy vs. Lite"
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:59 am
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Eroot64 wrote:

That would be great, I get comps to lots of shows , maybe I can hook you up with some tickets. :wink:

That would be awesome!

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