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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:14 pm
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I'm quite intrigued by the Polytune clip-on.

But @~$50 and given that I have 2 Snark's, a Reverb.com Snark knock-off ($5) and a built-in tuner on my Martin's Fishman Presys preamp, I'm just gonna live with the intrigue.

So far as accuracy is concerned, none of them are truly dead-on-balls accurate.

I say this because I can clip any two tuners to the neck and they NEVER agree 100% (though they're always close).

IMHO, in the real world, you can carry the quest for absolute accuracy too far. In a Band setting, what matters is the overall accuracy. If the Rhythm Guitar, Bass, Keyboard and what have you are all off but you're split-the-bullseye accurate, it can appear that you're the one out of tune.

The same holds true of rhythm. If you're exactly on the beat, but everyone else is a fraction early or late, you're the one who will sound off.

Don't get me wrong, accuracy is a good thing, but it's better to be able to adjust to your bandmates for the overall quality of the music.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:51 pm
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I'll probably look at one, and keep my $50.00 Buckeroos in my pocket. Image If it is that expensive, I'd really have to be wowed by an accurate little tuner.

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:48 am
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zontar wrote:
I use a Snark--and I love it--easy to read, easy to use.
And it's not so expensive either--and this isn't' a case of getting what you pay for.
I have a more expensive clip on tuner I stopped using after I tried a Snark.


I agree.

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:11 pm
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I just picked up the Polytune Clip-On over the weekend and I'm very happy with it's performance on my Martin Acoustics. It's a very thoughtfully designed and well executed product. The display is super bright and easy to read, it grabs onto the note super fast and gives a very stable and accurate reading. I was surprised that the "Polytune" function actually did work quite well in order to give me a quick idea of all 6 strings with one slow strum, then any single string that registers off can be plucked separately and the display auto-switches to "strobe" or "needle" mode (whichever you select) and focuses on that string. (Strobe is +/- .02 cents accuracy, Needle is +/- 0.5 cents accuracy) The display auto-corrects to orient itself the right way up no matter which way around the clip is used on different instruments, just like an ipad does when you flip it around. All up a very nice product with a high quality feel about it.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:33 pm
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+1 Snowy

I just picked one up today and tried it as soon as I got back.
I like it a lot.
I don't mind spending a little extra for a better product.
It's fast, easy and accurate.
This is my new tuner for acoustics.
I'll still use the PolyTune stomp for my electrics.
Goodbye Snark.

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:34 am
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No457 Snowy wrote:
Strobe is +/- .02 cents accuracy, Needle is +/- 0.5 cents accuracy

That's ridiculous given that a fretted guitar is always tuned in compromise tuning. A fifth will be 2 cents off from the 3:2 resonance frequency if tuned ''correctly" according to a tuner.
Better to use your ear for the fine tuning, and tune slightly off based on the key you play in, so the end result sounds better. And adjust when changing tunes.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:16 pm
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arth1 wrote:
No457 Snowy wrote:
Strobe is +/- .02 cents accuracy, Needle is +/- 0.5 cents accuracy

That's ridiculous given that a fretted guitar is always tuned in compromise tuning. A fifth will be 2 cents off from the 3:2 resonance frequency if tuned ''correctly" according to a tuner.
Better to use your ear for the fine tuning, and tune slightly off based on the key you play in, so the end result sounds better. And adjust when changing tunes.


I've had no problems so far, but that could be due to my Tin ear. :lol:

YMMV


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:03 pm
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I am a firm believer that if your ear disagrees with a good tuner then you need to retrain your ear.

Or change strings. Old strings can sometimes create tuning issues because the crud from your fingers that builds up in the windings, while having not much affect on the fundamentals, can confuse the harmonics. Tuners and ears agree that they both hear both.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:08 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I am a firm believer that if your ear disagrees with a good tuner then you need to retrain your ear.

Or you play (or play with) a lot of justly intoned instruments, and know that the tuning of a guitar is a compromise equal temperament tuning, which will always be off for any interval except octaves, but the same amount no matter what key.

If you know the key and which strings you're going to play, the tuning you get from a tuner is not optimal.

If you play a perfect fifth on a perfectly tuned guitar according to a correct electronic tuner, the two notes will be exactly 700 cents apart. Per definition. However, a good ear wants the ratio to be a 3:2 frequency harmonic, which is ~702 cents. For a major third, it's even more sour - the equal temperament tuning is exactly 400 cents, while the 5:4 ratio is almost 14 cents lower than that.
This is why many players adjust the tuning by ear based on what chords they are going to play, and where they play them.

Many songs in D call for three different fifths on the EA strings, and one more on the AD strings. If I know that's what I'm going to play, I tune up the A string two cents, and the D string up four cents.
That's still within reasonable bounds - the two or four cents off is still going to be far less than the average error in equal temperament. But it gives me fifths that have pure harmonics with overtones that don't "move" or grate on the ear.

tl;dr: Deviating from a tuner can be perfectly acceptable if you know what you do, and why.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:39 am
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Not my gig!! Hate the way they look. Makes a Stratocaster look like it has a tumor. One of my amps, an Orange Bass 50, has a tuner built in. So do my acoustic- electrics. Better way to go IMHO but YMMV.

Doc :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:30 am
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arth1 wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
I am a firm believer that if your ear disagrees with a good tuner then you need to retrain your ear.

Or you play (or play with) a lot of justly intoned instruments, and know that the tuning of a guitar is a compromise equal temperament tuning, which will always be off for any interval except octaves, but the same amount no matter what key.

If you know the key and which strings you're going to play, the tuning you get from a tuner is not optimal.

If you play a perfect fifth on a perfectly tuned guitar according to a correct electronic tuner, the two notes will be exactly 700 cents apart. Per definition. However, a good ear wants the ratio to be a 3:2 frequency harmonic, which is ~702 cents. For a major third, it's even more sour - the equal temperament tuning is exactly 400 cents, while the 5:4 ratio is almost 14 cents lower than that.
This is why many players adjust the tuning by ear based on what chords they are going to play, and where they play them.

Many songs in D call for three different fifths on the EA strings, and one more on the AD strings. If I know that's what I'm going to play, I tune up the A string two cents, and the D string up four cents.
That's still within reasonable bounds - the two or four cents off is still going to be far less than the average error in equal temperament. But it gives me fifths that have pure harmonics with overtones that don't "move" or grate on the ear.

tl;dr: Deviating from a tuner can be perfectly acceptable if you know what you do, and why.



While I understand what you're saying...and to some small degree perhaps even agree with it, I also think you're over-looking a few things as well.

-If- your doing studio work, where you can sit there and take the time to be that precise (assuming every other member of the band does the same) and/or -if- you're playing exclusively in something like an open tuning, this is all fine. Live work however, is a TOTALLY different ball game. First and foremost, let's be honest here - your crowd isn't there to simply watch you tune your guitar. I won't speak for others here and I really don't even know how many people pay attention to this, however I've seen the crowd's attention "wander" if the band is standing there tuning instead of playing. A great many people these days tend to have a VERY short attention span (as can be witnessed by the likes of Twitter and even some forums, LOL). People who go out to see live music, everything from rock to classical really, want to be entertained and just as "Tun-ing" isn't a city in China, it's also not that much fun to watch either (LOL).

If you're lucky enough to work with a singer (or are lucky enough to be a singer yourself) who sings EVERY song in the same key, you -might- be able to get away with some of this, but again while I won't speak for others here, in both of the bands I'm in, it's seldom that we play more than 2 songs back to back that are in the same key. Between the songs themselves and the fact that both bands have multiple singers, we may play the first tune in G, the next tune in A, the tune after that in E, then back to G and maybe something in F# or C somewhere along the way. If you're methodically re-tuning to that degree of precision between every song...dude...your audience is gonna be out the door before the end of the first set!

On that issue alone, going by the tuner is usually a benefit for most folks as it gives everyone on stage a singular point of reference. Everyone tunes up when they walk in the door, checks the tuning before the start of the first set and then just periodically tweaks as needed...doesn't really slow down the flow or groove.

I also have to say that I think you're over-looking the rest of the band as well. Consider this - even if you have an individual who does have an ear that's that well trained and even if there were a way to tune that precisely without upsetting the flow of the set, unless EVERYONE in the band is doing the same, then something's gonna sound off. You can have your guitar perfectly tuned, however if the bass player and the rhythm player are using conventional tuning, "the band" is gonna sound out of tune. For contemporary music, the beauty of tempered tuning is that it puts everyone on the same page all the time. Even if the lead guitarist, the rhythm guitarist and bass player are all using different tuners with a slightly different degree of precision, the band as a whole is still "in the ball park"...and that, in and of itself counts for a lot. You said "Deviating from a tuner can be perfectly acceptable if you know what you do, and why" but I my response here would simply be "But what about your bass player?". Seriously...if this is the case, then shouldn't the drummer be retuning every song too? Shouldn't your drummer have those perfect fifths that are in perfect tune with the rest of the band for each song?

Along with that, I think you're also over-looking the fact that MOST of the people in an average audience just don't have ears which are THAT discriminating! Hell...a great many weekend warriors just don't have ears that are THAT discriminating (particularly after a few beers and some good smoke, LOL). Yea, sure...if you have a couple of strings that are whole a step flat, even the drunks in the club may notice, however in an average situation, everyone being tight and everyone playing well goes A LOT further than that degree of preciseness regarding tuning. It's really along the lines of the old debate between amps and guitars...most people in the audience just don't know a Strat from a Les Paul or a Marshall from a Fender and the same really goes for tuning...if your E string is a cent or two off, the majority of people in the club that night just aren't gonna notice.

And none of that even addresses other issues such as BMW's comment about old strings and such. When you're playing live, yea, tuning is important, BUT there's other factors such as the amp, the crowd, the venue, the PA system (in situations where everything may be piped thru the mains), yadda, yadda, yadda. Seriously, unless there's a specific problem, how many people even check their intonation just before a show? With this in mind, the idea of "tuning by ear based on what chords they are going to play" seems quite trivial compared to just using a decent tuner.

This is obviously just my own personal opinion and I'll be the first to say that yes, tuning certainly is important, however I also feel that it's one of those things that people can also get too obsessive about as well. While the tuning from a decent little tuner may not be "optimal", in many, if not most cases with contemporary music, it's usually "close enough".

Just my $.02


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:46 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
Not my gig!! Hate the way they look. Makes a Stratocaster look like it has a tumor. One of my amps, an Orange Bass 50, has a tuner built in. So do my acoustic- electrics. Better way to go IMHO but YMMV.

Doc :wink:



Ya know, I was actually kind of worried about that when I first started using my Snarks...thought it looked kind of weird. But then I was showing a vid of one of our shows to a non-musician friend of mine who asked "what's that glowing thing on the end of your guitar?". I told her it was my clip-on tuner and she said "Oh"...and that was the end of it.

I will say that I do love the convenience of my Snarks. As I'm getting older...well...let's just say my eyes suck (LOL) and I tend to find on-board tuners and/or pedal tuners really hard to read any more. Having the Snark up on the headstock there is just sooooooooooooooooooooo much easier to read and being up by the tuners, I don't have to look back or forth or grope for the right tuner or anything. For the little bit it may lack in aesthetics, it MORE than makes up for in convenience and functionality. If it looks a bit odd...hey...so do I, LOL!


If it sounds good and I play well, THAT is what's important.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:22 am
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lomitus wrote:
Live work however, is a TOTALLY different ball game. First and foremost, let's be honest here - your crowd isn't there to simply watch you tune your guitar.

Watch some Albert King videos sometimes. He did small tuning adjustments almost every time he had a spare second, by ear, while playing.
(Then there are people like Yngwie Malmsteen, who does a straight strum, and then adjust all the strings rapidly - all in about 2 seconds But that doesn't count - it's evil warlock tricks (i.e. I can't do it))

lomitus wrote:
I also have to say that I think you're over-looking the rest of the band as well. Consider this - even if you have an individual who does have an ear that's that well trained and even if there were a way to tune that precisely without upsetting the flow of the set, unless EVERYONE in the band is doing the same, then something's gonna sound off. You can have your guitar perfectly tuned, however if the bass player and the rhythm player are using conventional tuning, "the band" is gonna sound out of tune.

You could just as easily say that this is a problem when using a tuner too - it won't tune the same as just intonation instruments like flutes and fiddles, and the overall sound will be slightly off.
When you push a flute into a higher register, the sound will shift a harmonic ratio, and not by equal temperament. Heck, even playing non-octave pinch harmonics on a guitar will produce notes that are harmonic, and not equal temperament. A 3rd harmonic will be a perfect fifth, 702 cents, not 700 cents. A 5th harmonic will be a major third at 386 cents, not 400 cents. That difference of 14 cents can be very audible when you play with others. Everybody who tunes to a tuner then becomes the problem, not the solution.

Knowing about this, and be able to compensate by ear as much as reasonable (but no more) can indeed make you sound better.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:38 am
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lomitus wrote:
arth1 wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
I am a firm believer that if your ear disagrees with a good tuner then you need to retrain your ear.

Or you play (or play with) a lot of justly intoned instruments, and know that the tuning of a guitar is a compromise equal temperament tuning, which will always be off for any interval except octaves, but the same amount no matter what key.

If you know the key and which strings you're going to play, the tuning you get from a tuner is not optimal.

If you play a perfect fifth on a perfectly tuned guitar according to a correct electronic tuner, the two notes will be exactly 700 cents apart. Per definition. However, a good ear wants the ratio to be a 3:2 frequency harmonic, which is ~702 cents. For a major third, it's even more sour - the equal temperament tuning is exactly 400 cents, while the 5:4 ratio is almost 14 cents lower than that.
This is why many players adjust the tuning by ear based on what chords they are going to play, and where they play them.

Many songs in D call for three different fifths on the EA strings, and one more on the AD strings. If I know that's what I'm going to play, I tune up the A string two cents, and the D string up four cents.
That's still within reasonable bounds - the two or four cents off is still going to be far less than the average error in equal temperament. But it gives me fifths that have pure harmonics with overtones that don't "move" or grate on the ear.

tl;dr: Deviating from a tuner can be perfectly acceptable if you know what you do, and why.



While I understand what you're saying...and to some small degree perhaps even agree with it, I also think you're over-looking a few things as well.

-If- your doing studio work, where you can sit there and take the time to be that precise (assuming every other member of the band does the same) and/or -if- you're playing exclusively in something like an open tuning, this is all fine. Live work however, is a TOTALLY different ball game. First and foremost, let's be honest here - your crowd isn't there to simply watch you tune your guitar. I won't speak for others here and I really don't even know how many people pay attention to this, however I've seen the crowd's attention "wander" if the band is standing there tuning instead of playing. A great many people these days tend to have a VERY short attention span (as can be witnessed by the likes of Twitter and even some forums, LOL). People who go out to see live music, everything from rock to classical really, want to be entertained and just as "Tun-ing" isn't a city in China, it's also not that much fun to watch either (LOL).

If you're lucky enough to work with a singer (or are lucky enough to be a singer yourself) who sings EVERY song in the same key, you -might- be able to get away with some of this, but again while I won't speak for others here, in both of the bands I'm in, it's seldom that we play more than 2 songs back to back that are in the same key. Between the songs themselves and the fact that both bands have multiple singers, we may play the first tune in G, the next tune in A, the tune after that in E, then back to G and maybe something in F# or C somewhere along the way. If you're methodically re-tuning to that degree of precision between every song...dude...your audience is gonna be out the door before the end of the first set!

On that issue alone, going by the tuner is usually a benefit for most folks as it gives everyone on stage a singular point of reference. Everyone tunes up when they walk in the door, checks the tuning before the start of the first set and then just periodically tweaks as needed...doesn't really slow down the flow or groove.

I also have to say that I think you're over-looking the rest of the band as well. Consider this - even if you have an individual who does have an ear that's that well trained and even if there were a way to tune that precisely without upsetting the flow of the set, unless EVERYONE in the band is doing the same, then something's gonna sound off. You can have your guitar perfectly tuned, however if the bass player and the rhythm player are using conventional tuning, "the band" is gonna sound out of tune. For contemporary music, the beauty of tempered tuning is that it puts everyone on the same page all the time. Even if the lead guitarist, the rhythm guitarist and bass player are all using different tuners with a slightly different degree of precision, the band as a whole is still "in the ball park"...and that, in and of itself counts for a lot. You said "Deviating from a tuner can be perfectly acceptable if you know what you do, and why" but I my response here would simply be "But what about your bass player?". Seriously...if this is the case, then shouldn't the drummer be retuning every song too? Shouldn't your drummer have those perfect fifths that are in perfect tune with the rest of the band for each song?

Along with that, I think you're also over-looking the fact that MOST of the people in an average audience just don't have ears which are THAT discriminating! Hell...a great many weekend warriors just don't have ears that are THAT discriminating (particularly after a few beers and some good smoke, LOL). Yea, sure...if you have a couple of strings that are whole a step flat, even the drunks in the club may notice, however in an average situation, everyone being tight and everyone playing well goes A LOT further than that degree of preciseness regarding tuning. It's really along the lines of the old debate between amps and guitars...most people in the audience just don't know a Strat from a Les Paul or a Marshall from a Fender and the same really goes for tuning...if your E string is a cent or two off, the majority of people in the club that night just aren't gonna notice.

And none of that even addresses other issues such as BMW's comment about old strings and such. When you're playing live, yea, tuning is important, BUT there's other factors such as the amp, the crowd, the venue, the PA system (in situations where everything may be piped thru the mains), yadda, yadda, yadda. Seriously, unless there's a specific problem, how many people even check their intonation just before a show? With this in mind, the idea of "tuning by ear based on what chords they are going to play" seems quite trivial compared to just using a decent tuner.

This is obviously just my own personal opinion and I'll be the first to say that yes, tuning certainly is important, however I also feel that it's one of those things that people can also get too obsessive about as well. While the tuning from a decent little tuner may not be "optimal", in many, if not most cases with contemporary music, it's usually "close enough".

Just my $.02

+ INFINITY

I'm a stickler for accurate tuning within the band, but...

Between differing keys for different songs, rising/falling temperatures/humidity in the performance venue, differing/alternate tunings, and the need for everybody in the band to be sympathetically tuned to one another (I'm possibly using the wrong term, I mean tuned closely to/not clashing with one another), arth1's practice will not work in a live performance, even in the most controlled environment.

...and if a performer is privileged enough to own multiple guitars and have each instrument specifically tuned for each key, deltas in temperature and humidity will require said performer re-check the tuning again, unless they are doubly privileged and have a guitar tech making adjustments exactly prior to handing the instrument to the performer.

Just like the highly esteemed and late Albert King, I make small adjustments on the fly, but only the most sycophantic of fans are happy to wait for a person to retune extensively...especially if it happens between EVERY STINKING SONG.

I won't dignify any statement that uses Yngwie in the positive manner. Pretentious jackassery and arrogant attitudes while playing soulless technical exercises deserve--and will be given--no quarter at any time, at least not by me.

This theory and practice of said theory points to a player who is (1) only a solo performer, (2) only recording (not performing in front of an audience), or (3) is extremely disliked by/about to be fired by his/her fellow band mates due to sucking all the life and momentum out of live performances and rehearsals.

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:59 am
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
Just like the highly esteemed and late Albert King, I make small adjustments on the fly, but only the most sycophantic of fans are happy to wait for a person to retune extensively...

I don't think anyone advocated that.

What started this sub-thread was tuners having an accuracy far smaller than a single cent. That is what's truly pointless.
Anyone who can hear 1 cent off can certainly hear the 14 cents off in a 5th harmonic or the "standing waves" of a fifth that's two cents off.
If anything, a tuner that reports 0.5 cents off as inaccurate is going to cause more tuning delays, especially for players who trust the tuner and not the ear, and will needlessly fiddle to make the tuner happy.


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