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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:17 am
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arth1 wrote:
Anyone who can hear 1 cent off can certainly hear the 14 cents off in a 5th harmonic or the "standing waves" of a fifth that's two cents off.If anything, a tuner that reports 0.5 cents off as inaccurate is going to cause more tuning delays, especially for players who trust the tuner and not the ear, and will needlessly fiddle to make the tuner happy.


See!?!? And you were wondering what the hell you needed to study General Physics for? 8)

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:01 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
See!?!? And you were wondering what the hell you needed to study General Physics for? 8)

That was because they wouldn't let me have a slipstick without taking physics :)

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Um, am I dating myself here?


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:33 pm
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I almost hesitate to add my two cents (weak pun) given all the much more qualified and accurate technical information already provided, but here it is.
After ten years of tuning just by ear (related to the others I was playing with) I bought a Boss. It provided a good general starting point so everyone was on the same page. The Boss was a PIA because it was always in the loop getting knocked around. When the Snark came out I got one and it spends most of its time on one of my acoustics, it works well and is very convenient. Just as with the Boss I find the Snark provides an accurate starting point for me. However once in agreement with the tuner I always make quick corrections by ear as needed. For me its what I hear that matters, if it sounds out of tune, it is, ( Snark or no Snark). Even though no one listening would ever notice a few cents here or there, I do, and if it effects my head it affects my performance.
Music is the artistic manifestation of physics and mathematics, and the physical reasons one note sounds good with another is even more beautiful when you understand the math (as most of you do much better than I). For thousands of years musicians have discovered the sound of being in tune, to them it was just the magic of music. Now we know what's behind the magic, OZ has been revealed.
Sometimes I know why what I'm playing sounds right, sometimes not so much. I have to forget all that when I play, thinking about all the technical stuff just shuts me down. This is particularly true when I'm improvising, the more I learn, the harder it becomes to be spontaneous. So while I love the physics, I cant pay attention to them at all when I play.
To sum up, as a musician, if it sounds right, it is,I think thats all the really matters.

(P.S. my dad made me learn rudimentary physics before he gave me his slide rule from the50's, I feel old too. Thanks for all great info regarding the tuning issue.)


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:32 pm
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arth1 wrote:
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Um, am I dating myself here?

Yup :!: :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:43 am
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arth1 wrote:
Screamin Armadillo wrote:
Just like the highly esteemed and late Albert King, I make small adjustments on the fly, but only the most sycophantic of fans are happy to wait for a person to retune extensively...

I don't think anyone advocated that.


But is that not what you're essentially talking about with your references to equal temperament? In your earlier comment you stated "Many songs in D call for three different fifths on the EA strings, and one more on the AD strings. If I know that's what I'm going to play, I tune up the A string two cents, and the D string up four cents"...the question of course (and one of the reason's for my earlier response) is HOW MANY SONGS do you play back to back like this? Looking at just the first set list for one of my bands, yea, the first two tunes are in G, the next is in C, the tune after is in A, then Em, G, E, G, Em, G, A...we have 4 people singing, so they keys the tunes are in are just ALL OVER the place! LOL!!! In order to tune to each key of each song to the degree which you suggest, let alone have EVERYONE in the band tune that way so that THE BAND is absolutely perfectly in tune, no...that's just NOT practical to do on stage.

arth1 wrote:
What started this sub-thread was tuners having an accuracy far smaller than a single cent. That is what's truly pointless. Anyone who can hear 1 cent off can certainly hear the 14 cents off in a 5th harmonic or the "standing waves" of a fifth that's two cents off.


I agree...debating about tuners with an accuracy smaller than a single cent is certainly pointless.



arth1 wrote:
If anything, a tuner that reports 0.5 cents off as inaccurate is going to cause more tuning delays, especially for players who trust the tuner and not the ear, and will needlessly fiddle to make the tuner happy.


I would point out that this is a rather subjective comment at best. First it suggests that for the majority of players, the ear is more discriminating than the tuner, however for a good many people, the reason they use a tuner to begin with is that they haven't developed their ear to THAT degree. For those who might question this, I would refer you to Wikipedia...at the bottom of the page, they have some examples of what this difference sounds like...while I'm sure that some folks will immediately hear the difference, I suspect there's quite a few who may have to listen a bit closer...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_%28music%29

Now let's put this in perspective. Let's assume your a lead guitar player and somewhere in a club on a fairly average Saturday night, that you're tearing up the lead to "Sweet Home Alabama"...the band is in the groove, the crowd is rowdy, the dance floor is full...is that 5 cent difference REALLY going to be THAT substantial, let alone having your A string out by only 2 cents? Assuming your chops are up and you otherwise hit all your licks, do you really think anyone in the crowd is even gonna notice?? Really? I don't wish to sound rude, but if that 2 cent difference on your A string is REALLY affecting your playing...dude...you really need another beer!

For MOST people it has been suggested that 5 cents is at the threshold of what's actually perceptible...and that's under ideal conditions. Referencing that same Wikipedia article, "the just noticeable difference (JND), also varies as a function of the frequency, the amplitude and the timbre. In one study, changes in tone quality reduced student musicians' ability to recognize, as out-of-tune, pitches that deviated from their appropriate values by ±12 cents". Now again let's apply this to a live application...if someone can't distinguish a 12 cent difference by ear (allowing for ambient noise and such), would a half way decent tuner not actually be FASTER and easier to use? Seems to me that a tuner that's even 5 cents off is still going to be more accurate and MUCH faster under such situations, yes?

This also insinuates "ideal conditions". Again we have to consider live vs. studio here. -If- you're in the back corner of a nice quiet studio (or your own bedroom perhaps), that 5 cents MAY make a difference...you may be able to hear it (whether or not it makes a HUGE hoo-ha is a different issue). In a live situation however, while I won't speak for others, my experience has been that...well...bars just aren't THAT quiet! LOL! You have the ambient noise from the crowd, you may have jukeboxes or tv's going in the background, (hopefully) you'll have the other members of the band tuning up, etc.. In this case I would speak from my own experience...just trying to hear yourself so you can tune by ear can be a rather formidable challenge! LOL!!! So again, how would a fairly accurate tuner actually slow this process down? Seems to me that it's little more than bing, bang, boom and wow...your reasonably in tune.





With all of that...dude...you're certainly welcome to your opinion, but if you really feel the need to adjust 1 string by 2 cents and another by 4 cents, I honestly can't help but feel that you're over-analyzing all of this to the extreme. For all the folks like Albert King that you can reference, there's just as many (if not more) that seem to make it thru a performance without such obsessions...Neil Young, Chuck Berry and The Grateful Dead certainly come to mind. Then of course there's folks like Pete Townsend and SRV who just batter the hell out of their guitars on stage...ya really think folks like that get too fussy if their guitar goes out just a hair? I even saw a local civic orchestra a few years back where a few folks were pretty much out of tune all night because of weather/temperature conditions (really bad Ohio snow storm that night)...I suspect the vast majority of people in the audience never even noticed.

There's just SO much more to playing, particularly in front of a live audience, than being THAT obsessive about tuning, both for the musician and the audience. If being that fanatical about your tuning really does float your boat and your audience (or fellow band mates) somehow tolerates or even appreciates it, great...personally I'd rather use my Snark and just get on with the gig.



Screamin Armadillo wrote:
I won't dignify any statement that uses Yngwie in the positive manner. Pretentious jackassery and arrogant attitudes while playing soulless technical exercises deserve--and will be given--no quarter at any time, at least not by me.


Dude! I am SOOOOOOOOOO with you on that! How people can still try and use that yutz as any sort of positive example regarding anything guitar related is WELL beyond me! Once you take away the guy's speed, there's pretty much nothing left at all. When it comes to Yngwie, like "modern art", I really just don't get it (and I hope I NEVER do).


Last edited by lomitus on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:51 am
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lomitus wrote:
Once you take away the guy's speed, there's pretty much nothing left at all.

Well, he has good playing technique. And he plays very clean. And his timing is pretty much spot on. But yeah I guess other than.... oh wait, his classical playing is probably better than mine and your combined. But other than that..... oh wait he has a huge working knowledge of musical theory too. Wait, what were we talking about? :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:04 am
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I have to agree that Yngwie is a yutz and robotic. I just saw a video id like to share of a girl who plays in a similar style but has more soul. I suppose practicing scales hours on end for years will get you here. Now if you just mix Gilmore's flavor with her technique you would have something. Quote from my Dad "its just as important what you don't play as what you do"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0WLA0BKxOc


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:49 am
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lomitus wrote:
Once you take away the guy's speed, there's pretty much nothing left at all.
strings10927 wrote:
Well, he has good playing technique. And he plays very clean. And his timing is pretty much spot on.


I would compare this to photographers who have razor sharp, perfectly focused images that are properly exposed EVERY time, yet seem to lack even the most basic concept of composition. Despite their technical prowess, their images are simply boring to look at, just as Malmsteen's playing is boring to listen too. Technique is important, but it's NOT the end all, be all of playing.

...and btw, if his technique is really THAT good...ummm...why does he always need sooooooooo much freakin' compression? That seems like a contradiction...

strings10927 wrote:
But yeah I guess other than.... oh wait, his classical playing is probably better than mine and your combined.


Ok, first if you're going to try and use my own classical playing as a comparative analysis, apparently with NO knowledge of my abilities in classical, then I would ask that you please review this first...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx_jDei4kGA

No, at no time do I attempt to play 1000 notes a minute and as stated in the credits, the piece is in fact based on and inspired by a short "riff" (for lack of a better word) by Leonardo da Vinci, however while the piece was in fact composed and recorded via midi, every part of that piece, including the lead clarinet, piano, 4 violins, 4 violas, cellos, bass, brass section (including 2 French horns) and the grand harp...every last part was composed AND performed by myself (including the creation of the slideshow/video, including 2 of the fonts used which I created from da Vinci's own handwritting). In other words, while classical isn't my usual genre, I do in fact have some small degree of experience here...care to post your own original classical work for a point of reference?

Very simply, as with flamenco or jazz, classical is a VERY different discipline. The lack of said discipline however should NOT be used as a derogatory reference to musician's of other genres. While there are MANY players who I would consider to be truly sensational as blues players, rock musicians...hell, even a few country players, I doubt the majority of them play much classical...this does NOT make them any less sensational at what they do. Trying to use Yngwie's ability to play classical to justify your apparent appreciation of the man, seems like you're trying to compare baseballs to donuts....it's just NOT the same thing. Just because the guy plays classical, doesn't mean he's "better" than those who don't.

What's more is that "better than" doesn't always suggest someone actually does something with any degree of exceptional proficiency. In the example where Malmsteen plays Toccata with the New Japan Philharmonic Orchestra, again it's just more about his speed than anything...there's little sense of self expression or dynamics. As with so much of his music, he just plays a lot of notes and plays them really fast. He takes an otherwise lovely piece of music and just flattens it out to the point that it's just not really worth listening too. Not to mention all the string "popping" again certainly calls into question "technique", either in regards to his playing...or simply his over-use of compression.

strings10927 wrote:
But other than that..... oh wait he has a huge working knowledge of musical theory too. :lol:


Yea...so? Again this is only -1- aspect of music and to be honest, if it were THAT important, than most folks wouldn't know likes of people such as "Stevie Ray Vaughn". Sure Stevie was fast, but there was just sooooo much more to his music. More to the point however, I've seen interviews with Stevie where he basically said he just didn't know crap about theory. Theory is about being analytical...good music is about feeling and soul. To be honest, I know a few people who do actually know gobs of theory...that really can't play a single note. These are often the same people where their hands stop moving the moment you take the sheet music away from them, because there is just NOTHING of themselves beyond the notes on the page. On the other hand, I used to be well versed myself when I was younger, however because I play mostly classic rock and blues and because I've had some good teachers and good mentors who took me past what's written in the books, I don't really need much theory at all...and have simply forgotten so much of what I learned as a child. In any case, there's a lot of otherwise sensational players out there who seem to do just fine without an ungodly knowledge of theory....it's not about how much you know, it's about how well you use what you DO know.



To me Yngwie seems to have virtually NO sense of dynamics, feeling or phrasing...everything is pretty much flat and lifeless, with no degree of self-expression or "soul" at all. Despite his speed and his (supposed) technique, his music seems to consistently lack any degree of emotion or inspiration. If you were to take the same notes that Yngwie plays and plug them into a midi file then back out thru a computer, you'd have a "performance" nearly identical to Malmsteen's...just as mechanical and totally uninspiring (given the proper software, I doubt you'd even be able to tell the difference). He plays LOTS of notes and plays them FAST, but like a contemporary artist who draws a single line on a canvas, ignoring color, shape, form and light, then tries to pass it off as some kind of thoughtful masterpiece, despite your comments, Yngwie seems to have missed the greater point of music as a whole...that whole idea that music can make you laugh, it can make you cry, it can make you more in love when you're in love, etc.. It's about feeling and emotion and self-expression, NOT a bunch of ranging notes played as quickly as possible. This thing we call "music" is something that transcends notes and scales and theory and technique...those things are a part of music, but they are NOT music itself. Those who don't understand this will never be truly inspiring as musicians.


Very simply, there are players out there who can say more with a single, well placed note than Yngwie can with 1000...and if anything, that's very truly sad.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:37 pm
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lomitus wrote:
But is that not what you're essentially talking about with your references to equal temperament? In your earlier comment you stated "Many songs in D call for three different fifths on the EA strings, and one more on the AD strings. If I know that's what I'm going to play, I tune up the A string two cents, and the D string up four cents"...the question of course (and one of the reason's for my earlier response) is HOW MANY SONGS do you play back to back like this?


It was meant as an example of why one might want to deviate from what a tuner says, not the reason. Other examples were given too, including playing with just intonation instruments in the band who can't tune their harmonics away, or playing 5th harmonic squealies, or ... any other number of other reasons.
If you know when it's not optimal to go with a tuner, and have the ears, you can do better by not having the exact tuning the tuner wants.

lomitus wrote:
Now let's put this in perspective. Let's assume your a lead guitar player and somewhere in a club on a fairly average Saturday night, that you're tearing up the lead to "Sweet Home Alabama"...the band is in the groove, the crowd is rowdy, the dance floor is full...is that 5 cent difference REALLY going to be THAT substantial, let alone having your A string out by only 2 cents?


No, a 5 cent difference isn't going to be substantial. The ~14 cents off inherent in equal temperament thirds is far worse.

lomitus wrote:
Really? I don't wish to sound rude, but if that 2 cent difference on your A string is REALLY affecting your playing...dude...you really need another beer!


No-one is going to notice 2 cents off, or in most case 5 cents off as a pitch. What might be noticed is that a harmony isn't a true harmony, because it's slightly off.

2 cents off is probably only an issue when you solo powerchords, but then it really does sound different when the strings are in 3:2 resonance compared to when they are slightly off - you get the audible equivalent to a moire effect. In that particular case, it sounds slightly better to be 5 cents off than 2 cents off.


lomitus wrote:
Very simply, there are players out there who can say more with a single, well placed note than Yngwie can with 1000...and if anything, that's very truly sad.

Very true. But to be fair, a few of his earliest works did have some feeling behind it. I think he became too focused on technique, and let that slide, alas.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:16 pm
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lomitus wrote:
Very simply, there are players out there who can say more with a single, well placed note than Yngwie can with 1000
lomitus, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. That's not what you said. You said:
lomitus wrote:
Once you take away the guy's speed, there's pretty much nothing left at all.

Which is absurd. Believe me, I'm no Yngwie fan. Not my cup of tea. But the guy knows how to do more than play notes fast.

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:46 am
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In that case I wouldn't swallow either pill. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:51 am
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swallowing pills to escape a situation... I'm definitely seeing the parallels between musicians and The Matrix more and more. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:33 pm
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Eroot64 wrote:
I have to agree that Yngwie is a yutz and robotic. I just saw a video id like to share of a girl who plays in a similar style but has more soul. I suppose practicing scales hours on end for years will get you here. Now if you just mix Gilmore's flavor with her technique you would have something. Quote from my Dad "its just as important what you don't play as what you do"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0WLA0BKxOc

Wow...she's extremely talented...Tina S...and she did do justice to "Comfortably Numb"

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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:46 pm
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At 16 even, makes me feel like a hack.


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Post subject: Re: Clip on Tuner
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:24 pm
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Tina S is a remarkable French teenage player...

...but back to the topic...I currently (ab)use three tuners...

the D'Addario NS Micro Tuner is pretty discreet and easily switched between guitars...

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...mostly I use the Korg RP-G1 Rimpitch in my Taylor...once you get it placed out of the strumming arc...talk about discreet...

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...on the pedal board my fave is the Planet Waves TruStrobe...bright display and you can use it with sound on or off during tuning...

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