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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:50 pm
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"In response to one of Lightning's posts, ted j asked the question "Why are all people who don't believe man landed on the moon idiots?"..."

Because, the entire premise that the Moon Landing was faked starts with stating the EVA was slow motion video.

In fact, it wasn't, nor could it have been.

Slow motion video cameras did not exist in 1969.

To have shot it on slow motion film and then transfer it to video also was not possible because first, you'd need to shoot over a mile of film to get the requisite base stock, and the telecine machines of the day could not hold a mile of film to perform the transfer.

Only a credulous person would continue to believe a faked landing in the face of this evidence.

If the word 'idiot' is not adequate to describe such people, perhaps fool, halfwit, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, cretin or moron is better suited. It's all just semantics.

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:19 am
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Well now, I personally don't doubt the authenticity of the Apollo 11 mission, but.....
Lightnin MN wrote:
Slow motion video cameras did not exist in 1969.

Wikipedia seems to think a Japanese director used slow motion in a 1954 film. Perhaps he was an alien? :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_motion

Lightnin MN wrote:
you'd need to shoot over a mile of film to get the requisite base stock, and the telecine machines of the day could not hold a mile of film to perform the transfer.

I can not go to Walmart and buy a satellite that is powerful enough to read what brand name is on someone's cigarette pack from space. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The government generally has all the best technology, sometimes before it's available to the general public. So unless you have high security clearance and it was your job to know these things ... I'm not sure if I believe it just cuz you said so, Lightnin'. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:47 am
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strings10927 wrote:
Well now, I personally don't doubt the authenticity of the Apollo 11 mission, but.....
Lightnin MN wrote:
Slow motion video cameras did not exist in 1969.

Wikipedia seems to think a Japanese director used slow motion in a 1954 film. Perhaps he was an alien? :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_motion

Lightnin MN wrote:
you'd need to shoot over a mile of film to get the requisite base stock, and the telecine machines of the day could not hold a mile of film to perform the transfer.

I can not go to Walmart and buy a satellite that is powerful enough to read what brand name is on someone's cigarette pack from space. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The government generally has all the best technology, sometimes before it's available to the general public. So unless you have high security clearance and it was your job to know these things ... I'm not sure if I believe it just cuz you said so, Lightnin'. :wink:


Kurosawa's 'Seven Samurai' was a ground-breaking film in many ways. But they didn't use slow-motion video, for the same reason the Apollo EVA scenes didn't - it didn't exist. Kurosawa used slow-motion Film.

The only slow-motion video that existed at the time was the Ampex HS-100 which stored overcranked video on a magnetic disc. Unfortunately, it only had the capacity to store 30 seconds of real-time slow-motion.

The Apollo EVA was done on video, 143 minutes of which was broadcast 'Live' to more than a billion people (actually there was an approx. 4 minute delay due to the distance involved).

It would have been possible to overcrank film, then transfer it to video in slow-motion, but not undetectably. Again, this is because the technology to do so didn't exist.

You would have to have a continuous run of film because no splices would stand up to forensic scrutiny and a splice would immediately identify the broadcast as staged. Simple math is all that's required to see that such a run of film would require more than 5,000 ft. of base stock. The film-to-video transfer requires a telecine machine and none existed that could handle a mile of film. In fact, there still isn't. The reason for this is because such a machine has no practical use. True, long length films such as Dr. Zivago, Gone with the Wind, and such have been transferred to video, but these use standard telecine machines because having a splice doesn't matter.

None of this is because 'I say so...', all this information is readily available.

But this is one of the problems with many belief systems today. People want to believe so badly that they discount any known facts which do not support their belief.

Instead they dream up some cockamamie scenarios wherein the "Government" (always the dark enemy in these things) secretly develops the technology and then conceals it (and the 100 or so people necessary to produce it) for the next 45 years. Never mind the fact that not one single bit of evidence to support this exists.

In other words, it is idiotic to discount all the known evidence that men landed on the Moon, not just the impossibility of staging the slow-mo, but other things. Evidence such as the Laser Reflector the astronauts installed on the moon's surface to accurately measure distance and any perturbations in the moon's orbit. This reflector is available to countless scientists and university professors who use it regularly. Evidence of the Moon Rocks which geologically differ significantly from any rocks found on Earth (how'd the "Government" stage these?).

It's equally idiotic to concoct some extreme, imaginary scenario of a staged event relying solely on an explanatory hypothesis that accuses the "Government" of having covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an inability to travel to the Moon and back.

cheers!

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Last edited by Lightnin MN on Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:00 am
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Again, just because you can't buy it at the corner store doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Not to say the "dark shady government" ALWAYS has technology that is beyond what the regular consumers have, but IMO it would be naive to assume they never could. YMMV, IMO.

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:25 am
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One of the other techs at the last post facility i worked at was/is a huge conspiracy theorist. I had no idea how serious he was about debunking the lunar landing until it came up in the shop. I thought he was joking but all the sudden it got pretty heated and he got all short of breath and stormed out of the room spewing out phrases like "van allen belts"

woah... that was intense.

I'm with you Lightining... the film/telecine evidence is pretty hard to ignore. And... I think I read somewhere the capsule was lined with gold foil to protect the occupants from radiation.

Anybody up for discussing the Flat Earth Society?

:D

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:36 am
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strings10927 wrote:
Again, just because you can't buy it at the corner store doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Not to say the "dark shady government" ALWAYS has technology that is beyond what the regular consumers have, but IMO it would be naive to assume they never could. YMMV, IMO.


Again, postulating that something might be possible does nothing to prove that it is possible or that it does exist.

It may be the basis of theorizing something, but that theory requires supporting evidence to validate it. If no such evidence exists, then it remains only a theory.

But if evidence counters the theory, such as, in this case, the non-existence of high-speed video technology in 1968, then the theory must be dropped, at least until some supporting evidence is found. The innuendo that such evidence is being held secretly is also a theory and must be supported.

It is true that the government lied about the secret war in Cambodia and Laos at the time, but that in no way proves they also lied about the Apollo landing.

You may rely on your belief or feeling as the basis for deciding whether to take a Hit or Stand at a Blackjack table, but that is not a way to advance or maintain a society or a country.

This is where Critical Thought is necessary. Something our society has been increasingly lacking the past few decades.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:19 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
It may be the basis of theorizing something, but that theory requires supporting evidence to validate it. If no such evidence exists, then it remains only a theory.

exactly, so since none of us has any evidence of what technology the US government had or didn't have at that time, all any of us can do is theorize. Remember this: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

As far as government secrets ... do you suppose an aircraft such as the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit (Stealth Bomber) was invented the same day you heard about it? Here's a hint, research for this aircraft began during the Carter administration. :shock: So do you suppose there was a time gap in between when this technology was invented, tested, and successfully implemented, and the time your average Joe heard about it? What year was it first implemented? Nobody seems to know and yet it does indeed exist.

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:21 am
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captainc wrote:
... I'm with you Lightining... the film/telecine evidence is pretty hard to ignore...
:D


It is the basis for every theory that the Apollo landing was faked. Explaining how the astronauts moved about the soundstage is fundamental to any argument that the event was staged and not real.

To clarify, the astronauts did not move in slow motion. They moved around in a 1/6th gravity environment in pressure suits.

When I was involved in flight testing, I twice had occasion to wear a high-altitude suit somewhat similar to what the astronauts used. But, the suits I wore did not have the articulated joints the space suits had. When this suit was pressurized, I did not have the mobility to walk normally or even to pull a pen from my sleeve pocket.

The articulated joints the space suits had only slightly increased this mobility, but still required the astronauts to 'hop' rather than walk on the moon's surface.

Such motion is not possible at 1 G, so the conspiracy theorists claim that this motion was simulated at 1 G through the use of slow-motion. It would also have been possible to 'fly' the astronauts on a wire, similar to what was used in the production of 'Peter Pan'. The problem with a wire is that it too wouldn't stand up to forensic scrutiny, so slo-mo was the thing.

But, such Slo-mo video didn't exist at the time, so clearly that could not be used.

The ability to explain this motion, which everyone saw live, is central to supporting any theory that the event was staged. If it cannot be explained, then no other 'evidence' such as supposed inconsistent shadows, the lack of visible stars or radiation from the Van Allen Belt matters.

But, like your co-worker, so many people want to believe in a staged landing so badly, that they'll believe in extreme, non-supportable theories rather than admit they were wrong, or duped, or both.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:32 am
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This happened. :D


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:35 am
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strings10927 wrote:
...As far as government secrets ... do you suppose an aircraft such as the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit (Stealth Bomber) was invented the same day you heard about it? Here's a hint, research for this aircraft began during the Carter administration. :shock: So do you suppose there was a time gap in between when this technology was invented, tested, and successfully implemented, and the time your average Joe heard about it? What year was it first implemented? Nobody seems to know and yet it does indeed exist.


Actually, Stealth research began during the Ford administration.

I spent 7 years in Flight Research and knew that low-observable technology was being studied, though I had no involvement with either the F-117 or the B2.

Realize that most flight research is a dead-end. Either it cannot be made to work, it becomes obsolete before doing so, or something with more potential is discovered.

If you look at any military technology, weapon or vehicle, any advantage it may present is very shortly countered or nullified by an enemy. Such research is always secret in order to extend it's useful lifespan as much as possible.

Secrecy is a necessary thing. It can also be misused to deceive the public.

But if you're so convinced the government is continually lying to you or keeping things secret, why do you live here? Why not just move to Canada or Australia... everyone knows they don't keep secrets or lie to their citizens. :wink:

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:38 am
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strings10927 wrote:
This happened. :D



OK... for the last time... what about this don't you get??

The Chinese could fake this because it happened after 1968, after Slow-motion Video technology was invented.

The Apollo landing didn't.

A Moon Landing can be faked today, in 1968 it couldn't.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:39 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
Actually, Stealth research began during the Ford administration

that's cool, but I didn't say stealth research began during the Carter administration, I said development of the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit (Stealth Bomber) started at that time.

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:45 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
The Chinese could fake this because it happened after 1968, after Slow-motion Video technology was invented.

ummmmmm dude, they were underwater. I'm pretty sure water was invented before 1968. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:56 am
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Once a person has convinced himself of something like a fake moon landing or that the government is responsible for the collapse of the twin towers, it is almost impossible to dissuade them. Logical argument is pointless, because there belief is not logic based , its fear based.
While I fully believe that men landed on the moon, I also know that government should not be blindly trusted. In fact the creation of our country was based on distrust of authority and the theory that power corrupts.
Is the government capable of faking something like the moon landing, yes, did they fake it, absolutely not.
In society there are a wide range of beliefs, at the extreme end they are diametrically opposed. With this balance hopefully truth will emerge. While I personally am opposed to illogical or ill informed conclusions, having a segment of the population who are sceptical of everything may have a positive effect. Any valid belief will withstand challenge (however cockamamy that challenge is).
I ground my beliefs in provable facts, however I always try to keep an open mind ready to change with new information. This topic has produced all kinds of disagreement, I even said in an earlier post that I would avoid topics that were controversial or not music related, however I can't seem to resist the opportunity to give an opinion.
I have come to the conclusion that everyone here is an artist, some are traditional artists who tend to follow pure emotion (improvised leads tend to be emotional) , others our much more logical (electronics and music theory are very logical pursuits). While this is a gross oversimplification, this mix produces a lot of opposing opinions. Its like having a group of every religion talking about God, they all agree there is one, but will never agree who it is.
For me, while im here, I will share my opinion until the discussion degrades then I will say "HOW ABOUT THAT NEW STRAT, SOUNDS GREAT DOESN'T IT" hard to disagree with that...


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:06 am
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Eroot64 wrote:
Once a person has convinced himself of something like a fake moon landing or that the government is responsible for the collapse of the twin towers, it is almost impossible to dissuade them. Logical argument is pointless, because there belief is not logic based , its fear based

I totally agree with this statement. I watched the plane fly over my head extremely low on 911 and STILL found myself in a heated discussion that there were no planes on that day and that it was all TV trickery.

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