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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:36 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Sigh. No, it doesn't. It does not affect reality one bit. Collapsing the waveform kills the probabilities for the other outcomes. Nothing changes in our reality, because it already was so. The only things that changes is the maths.
And no consciousness is needed to collapse a waveform either. A simple mechanical process can do that. "Observer" in this context isn't anthropomorphizeable.
I'm not positive about your explanation, because I feel that collapsing the probabilities changes our reality. I do understand that you don't necessarily need a conscious observer to be present at the time of experimentation, but a mechanical process would still need a conscious entity to analyse the results.

This is not a simple concept that we are dealing with. I am not a stupid person, but I certainly cannot claim that I have a complete understanding. What I have gained from researching the double-slit experiment was the idea that observation affects results. You're claiming that this means nothing. Others claim that it is very significant, and could represent "consciousness created reality" - as seen by this interpretation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

What makes the double-slit experiment so important? We know about Schrödinger's cat and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, so why is this (similar) experiment also so notable?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove myself right (in fact, I know I'm at a least a bit wrong). I would like to know what your understanding is, to further my own.


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:40 pm
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DonX14 wrote:
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Unlikely for the Strat being played in Space, and I don't believe any other electric has been used either, although a light interface could replace a heavy amp. But, along with a variety of music and general postings historically posted here, the very name Stratocaster has a connection to Space and we at least have this.



I was headed for the Like button, then remembered there wasn't one on this forum...

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:07 pm
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zontar wrote:
I was headed for the Like button, then remembered there wasn't one on this forum...


+1 a like button might be nice. :D

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:06 pm
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Solid Body Love Songs wrote:
zontar wrote:
I was headed for the Like button, then remembered there wasn't one on this forum...


+1 a like button might be nice. :D

What, like as opposed to posting " I like this :lol: ", next thing we know is everyone will want buttons for everything, whatever happened to the days of "ropes and pulleys" technology eh :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:21 pm
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ted j wrote:
It's a scientific fact that even today, no one can pass through the Van allen belt....all the spacewalks were done below that level why?

https://ronabbass.wordpress.com/2012/08 ... -vid-incl/


This general charge is usually made by people who don't understand very much at all about radiation. After witnessing the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the tragedy of Chernobyl it is not surprising that the idea of radiation should elicit an intuitively fearful reaction. But when you understand the different types of radiation and what can be done about them, it becomes a manageable problem to avoid radiation exposure.
http://www.clavius.org/envrad.html


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:34 pm
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I cant take anymore! back to Guitars, well maybe 1 more


Last edited by Eroot64 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:16 pm
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What makes the double-slit experiment so important? We know about Schrödinger's cat and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, so why is this (similar) experiment also so notable?

I have a comment, Schrödinger's cat is just a ( philosophical) thought experiment while the double slit exp. is a test that supports the theory that light exists as both a wave and a particle, it further shows that when this experiment is observed with measuring device,detector, etc, lights wave/particle nature breaks down and the photon passes as though it was a particle only. While the nature of this experiment can be mathematically explained through the theory of quantum mechanics it has always had a ring of the philosophical to me. On a guttural level it makes me feel like we are piercing the veil to the true nature of the observable universe. While my mind understands the concept, my heart feels the tug of some underlying meaning. As in music, the mechanics can be explained mathematically , however math doesn't explain the Art. For example (from a different discussion) cold and mathematical Malmsteen vs. Gilmour. While I'm interested in the math, it doesn't make me feel the way Gilmour does.


Last edited by Eroot64 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:45 pm
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Eroot64 wrote:
ted j wrote:
It's a scientific fact that even today, no one can pass through the Van allen belt....all the spacewalks were done below that level why?

https://ronabbass.wordpress.com/2012/08 ... -vid-incl/


This general charge is usually made by people who don't understand very much at all about radiation. After witnessing the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the tragedy of Chernobyl it is not surprising that the idea of radiation should elicit an intuitively fearful reaction. But when you understand the different types of radiation and what can be done about them, it becomes a manageable problem to avoid radiation exposure.
http://www.clavius.org/envrad.html


The anti-nuclear movement is full of people who's minds are intransigent to the thought that Nuclear Power is a viable and SAFE answer to future energy needs. They want to believe it's bad and so are taken in by misinformation that's not only wrong, but that is scientifically impossible.

How many people do you think have died in the US since 1939 of radiation from a leaky storage canister or Nuclear Reactor mishap? Most would not believe that the answer is zero !

How many people die each year directly from particulate matter produced by coal-fired power plants ? 13,000 - every year !

Nuclear Power is responsible for fewer deaths than Solar Power. The manufacture of Solar Panels involves some of the deadliest toxins on earth !

How many people have even heard of an IFR - an Integral Fast Reactor ?

This is a reactor of modular design, can recycle it's own waste (and all the accumulated waste since the dawn of the nuclear age), is physically incapable of suffering a meltdown and cannot produce weapons-grade materials.

The long-touted trilogy of sustainable power - Wind, Water, Solar combined cannot meet even 30% of today's power needs, let alone tomorrow's which are growing at 10%/yr. There is a limit to how much energy strikes a square meter of earth from the Sun. If the entire surface of the earth were covered in solar panels, the power generated would not equal 50% of the power from coal-generated power. Virtually every hydro-electric source in the World has already been tapped and scientists are now wondering how massive wind and solar farms will effect our climate, disrupting weather patterns and increasing the atmospheric temperatures due to reflected sunlight.

There's the issue of intermittency and variability. Solar plants don't work at night or on cloudy days. Wind farms are subject to the condition of the Wind such as no wind, or insufficient wind to meet power demands. When this happens, fossil-fueled plants must make up the shortfall. These are the greatest greenhouse-gas producers on the planet.

To continue to push for renewable sources is to condemn most of the world population to ignorance, poverty and shortened lifespans.

Nuclear power scares people unrealistically. The radiation readings at fukushima and chernoble for example are currently less than the background radiation on the Champs Elyśees in Paris or on the beach in Rio de Janiero, as well as many other places on earth. That's not to say these disasters were not terribly dangerous (or potentially so), but these both used flawed technology which the IFR will prevent in future.

If you really want to learn the up-to-date straight facts, check out a movie called Pandora's Promise (currently on Netflix). In it, they debunk a lot of the commonly accepted risks of Nuclear Power and also show vehement anti-nuclear activists who have now come out in support of nuclear power - people such as: Gwyneth Cravens, Michael Shellenberger , Richard Rhodes, Stewart Brand, Mark Lynas, etc. These people were at the forefront of anti-nuclear activism for decades.

Pandora's Promise as well as some independent research is almost sure to make an open-minded person rethink their position on nuclear energy.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:39 pm
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[quote="ted j"]It's a scientific fact that even today, no one can pass through the Van allen belt....all the spacewalks were done below that level why?


It is hard to believe that any educated person would think the moon landing is fake. I also find that most people who are afraid of all radiation are ill informed. Almost everything radiates, we are the product of radiation via the sun. Even things like bananas produce radiation, the universe itself would have never existed without that property. While excessive exposure to several types can be harmful or fatal its not something to be feared. Regarding nuclear energy, I'm for it provided that the systems are well designed and far from habitation. While there are inherent dangers from fission plants, the harmful and often toxic waste produced by coal plants is unacceptable for the long run. I think fission and other alternatives to fossil fuel must be pursued. I also believe the the public's fear if nuclear power has taken a toll on research into the only logical future source of power... fusion. Hopefully Nuclear Fusion plants will power the world with no by products,(by the way even three mile island only released a small amount of radiation that research shows caused no adverse health issues)
P.S. Thanks for all the food radiation, couldn't do it without you.


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:59 pm
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Eroot64 wrote:
It is hard to believe that any educated person would think the moon landing is fake. I also find that most people who are afraid of all radiation are ill informed. Almost everything radiates, we are the product of radiation via the sun. Even things like bananas produce radiation, the universe itself would have never existed without that property. While excessive exposure to several types can be harmful or fatal its not something to be feared. Regarding nuclear energy, I'm for it provided that the systems are well designed and far from habitation. While there are inherent dangers from fission plants, the harmful and often toxic waste produced by coal plants is unacceptable for the long run. I think fission and other alternatives to fossil fuel must be pursued. I also believe the the public's fear if nuclear power has taken a toll on research into the only logical future source of power... fusion. Hopefully Nuclear Fusion plants will power the world with no by products,(by the way even three mile island only released a small amount of radiation that research shows caused no adverse health issues)
P.S. Thanks for all the food radiation, couldn't do it without you.


Are you for real, pal?

Perhaps you'd better refresh your 15-milliwatt memory regarding the difference between ionizing radiation and non-ionizing radiation......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation

I was born at Nellis Air Force Base some six decades ago, before JFK negotiated and signed the above-ground test-ban treaty with the Soviets. I lived on that base for over three years and can remember seeing the mushroom clouds many times over Yucca Flats, some 165 miles away. My mother and I both developed cancers -- she beat hers but the jury's still out on mine. So don't presume to preach about something for which you clearly have so little grasp of. The passive effects from the atomic emissions of a banana have no comparison to the hazards of ionizing radiation from fissile material.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:12 pm
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Insults are uncalled for... I arrived in 65 a year and a half after the ban and worked at the base(My son is an airmen) I think you misunderstood me, of course i never meant to imply radiation was harmless. My post was in response to the person who posted that astronauts could not have gone to the moon due to the radiation from the van allen belt. I also never said the radiation produced from fission was harmless, quite the contrary, the link between exposure to radiation and cancer is clear. My point was that "most" forms of radiation ( experienced during everyday life as opposed to an above ground nuke test) should not be feared. Although i have a minor in astronomy, I don't claim to be expert in radioactive issues,(your insult not withstanding), I have a fair understanding of the physics.
As a surgical nurse have experience in treating cancer patients with radiation. In fact, I worked several procedures that used various forms of radiation. On several procedures I chose to stay with the patient long after receiving some 2 to 3 times the allowable exposure. Cancer is no friend of mine, and I have placed those with the disease ahead of my own safety.
This being a Fender Guitar forum, for me i think I will avoid commenting on posts this off topic. The reason I'm here is music not debate or put downs.
P.S.. I hope you beat the disease.


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:55 pm
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Eroot64 wrote:
P.S.. I hope you beat the disease.


It's the third inning and thus far I am maintaining a slim lead.

Ironically it took I-131 to arrest what U-238 started.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:53 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Ironically it took I-131 to arrest what U-238 started.

U-238 isn't particularly dangerous. It has a half-life that's so long[*] - over 4 billion years - that the radiation from it is minimal, and most of that is alpha-radiation that's stopped by a few yards of air or a paper sheet. It's so little radioactive that it's used for radiation shielding(!).

[*]: Contrary to what many think, a long half-life is a good thing. Generally speaking, the shorter the half-life, the higher the radiation.

The main problem with natural Uranium is the impurities in the last percentage, mainly U-235, and not U-238 itself. It's when subjected to other ionizing radiation that U-238 emits beta-radiation, which is what destroys DNA and triggers cancer. But pure U-238 is one of the safer metals. I'd be more worried about handling Chromium or Nickel than U-238. So you should probably blame U-235, not U-238.

Or, indeed I-131, which was a major fallout from the senseless above ground nuclear testing in the 50s and 60s, and a likely cause of tens of thousands of people getting cancer. And yes, it's ironic that thyroid cancer caused by I-131 is treated with I-131 radiation.

Anyhow, good luck!


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:54 pm
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ripitup555 wrote:
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zontar wrote:
I was headed for the Like button, then remembered there wasn't one on this forum...


+1 a like button might be nice. :D

What, like as opposed to posting " I like this :lol: ", next thing we know is everyone will want buttons for everything, whatever happened to the days of "ropes and pulleys" technology eh :lol:

Like Button! 8)

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:01 am
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Since this thread has just gone all over the place now, I'm just gonna toss out an extra $.02 or so...just for the sake of wasting a few minutes at the keyboard here 8) .

Opinion and belief vs. fact...

Atoller asked "What makes anything a fact beyond any reasonable doubt?". I suspect that it's the consistent accumulation of evidence combined with observation and repeatable results. Facts are based on repeatable, observable evidence. Let's start with an easy one - gravity. If you are standing on the surface of a physical body with the size and mass of a planet...let's say the planet Earth...and you "drop an apple" in a reasonably controlled environment, assuming there's are no obstacle in the way and assuming there are no other conditions that might effect or alter this experiment (such as , high wind, being under water, or being in a hypothetical anti-gravity chamber, tesseract field, etc) and assuming the apple is indeed a genuine apple and not some apple shape balloon filled with helium or hot air, the apple will ALWAYS drop to the ground. At no time do you let go of the apple and have the apple move upwards to the sky. This is a fact. To suggest otherwise is an opinion or a belief and in light of the evidence, it's irrational.

Conversely, popular belief or opinion does NOT a fact make. Perhaps this is one of the places where people get so confused. Obviously anyone can test this apple "theory" and because anyone can do it, it MUST be true, yes? -If- this test was done last week, the week before, 200 years ago, today, tomorrow, next week or even 10 years from now (assuming no natural or man made disaster that would alter the physics of the experiment), then yes...it would be true...this fact would remain consistent. The result can be repeated. HOWEVER, if the experiment can NOT be repeated consistently over time given the same circumstances, then such a "fact" should be called in to question. Just because something has been witnessed by multiple people, doesn't necessarily make it a fact...as a great man once said, "you can fool all of the people some of the time...". For the sake of comparison, let's take a quick look at crap like religion...perhaps...just maybe some people did see a man rise from the grave some 2000 odd years ago, however there's NO EVIDENCE to support it. If anything, all the evidence we've seen over the past 2000 years seems to indicate the contrary...there's no way to prove it, so a rational mind SHOULD consider that perhaps it never really happened. Here's where we have a problem...facts, logic and evidence don't prevent some people from "believing".

Another example of how irrational belief can be in light of evidence is astrology. Consider how many people STILL believe in this utter nonsense. Let's consider this...after doing a quick Google search, here's my daily horoscope (Leo) for today from the top 3 sites that came up;

Who are the people in your neighborhood, Leo? Look beyond your own bubble, and tune into those nameless faces that surround you every day. Introduce yourself to that flirty barista or the couple that owns the local bakery. Welcome the family that just moved in to your apartment complex with a warm hello or a thoughtful gesture. Connections form your community, strengthening your own sense of belonging. Bonus: you might also score a cat-sitter or a new friend in the process!

The phrase 'no guts, no glory' will have special significance for you today. You will have to step up and show what you are made of in order to get the acclaim that you know you deserve. Sometimes, you have to take the high road and avoid confrontation. Then again, sometimes the confrontation gives you so much satisfaction that you're glad you took the less-high road. Fight for what is yours and do not let other people get in your way. You are just as capable as they are. Remind them of that fact.

Keeping things balanced today will prove challenging, Leo. Take this seriously because it's probably needed more than ever. You might be the arbiter in situations where a battle exists between old and new. Take advantage of opportunities. Make sure you're in on the deal. Use your communicative powers to help bridge the gap.


-If- this had ANY credibility, should all 3 of those readings not be the same?? This is a wonderful illustration of the problem. There are A LOT of people who really believe in this nonsense, some to the point that they actually plan their day by it, even though there is no truth of fact here AT ALL. It's totally irrational to think that such rubbish has any merit...but it doesn't stop some people from believing.

In response to one of Lightning's posts, ted j asked the question "Why are all people who don't believe man landed on the moon idiots?". While I won't use the term "idiot" (for the moment at least), I WILL say that to believe or not believe in something, contrary to the evidence is again irrational. It's one thing to have an "opinion" on something that's highly subjective...in this case, let's say guitars. One person may think that a Strat is "the best guitar" where as the next may feel a Les Paul is the best...others still may feel the same about a Jackson, Rickenbacker or Gretsch. One could use a similar analogy regarding Ford vs. Chevy as well. In such a case with all other things being equal, the ONLY thing we have is "opinion"...and there's nothing wrong with that at all. In terms of something like the moon landing however, there is sooooooooo much concrete evidence to suggest that yes - this really did happen, that to believe otherwise is irrational and as Budglo said, "don't expect people's respect when the evidence is so obvious".

So, what's wrong with believing in something that's irrational? After all, shouldn't everyone have the right to believe whatever they want? If it were as simple as someone indulging in foolish beliefs IN THE PRIVACY OF THEIR OWN HOME, it would be one thing, but more often than not, a great many people have this irresistible urge to spread such disease...as can be witnessed by this very conversation! Such beliefs are usually based on ignorance more than anything and worse, irrational beliefs can often lead to irrational behavior. How many of the problems we face today as a society...war, murder, gun violence, global climate change...how many such issues are a direct result of ignorance and beliefs? It's one thing to have "an opinion" on something that's otherwise subjective, it's another thing entirely to spread ignorance and misinformation based on personal beliefs, particularly when there's significant evidence which is contrary to those beliefs.

I will forego my comments about radiation for now except to say that ted j's comments regarding the Van Allen belt references a conspiracy site...and that alone should call his comments into question.

These are simply my own personal opinions...I hope someone finds some degree of wisdom in them.


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