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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:01 pm
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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:03 pm
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Then do you think in their 14th century minds, flat earth was a fact?


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:07 pm
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That's the spirit!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:32 pm
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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:43 pm
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atolleter wrote:
Then do you think in their 14th century minds, flat earth was a fact?

Yes, it was considered a 'fact'. But even things as supposedly concrete as the concept of a 'fact' are not as static as you may think. Half of the facts you know are probably wrong by now - look up the half life of facts if you are interested.


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:51 pm
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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:30 pm
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Lightnin MN wrote:
The majority of People's belief does NOTHING to establish a fact ! The majority of People prior to the late 14th century believed that the Earth was Flat... clearly it isn't. Belief is an opinion.

We haven't been able to rule out a "conciousness created universe" yet. The double-slit experiment has been repeated and verified, implying that observers have an influence on reality. I've seen many cases where the majority of People's belief have been presented as fact. While this does not confer the belief with actual fact status, it does skew understanding with an inertia of authority. While I very much agree with Lightnin' in principle, I am wary with absolutes. Believing the Earth was flat influenced society - it affected the 'progress' of Humanity. A fact was indeed established, but it was incorrect.

Lightnin', wise man that he is, points out that this belief does not make the fact correct. The half-life of facts, which I mentioned earlier, means that we must constantly re-evaluate 'facts' in the light of our current scientific understanding of the universe.

Sorry, just trying to drag the theme away from conspiracy theories. There was a beautiful full moon in Melbourne last night.

Jono


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:39 pm
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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:52 am
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Jonoteague wrote:
We haven't been able to rule out a "conciousness created universe" yet.

We haven't been able to rule out an invisible pink unicorn hypothesis either. It's in the nature of the unprovable to be, well, unprovable.
Unless and until something has a real way of being either proven or disproven, it can safely be disregarded. We can work with things that we haven't able to disprove yet, but we can't work with anything we can never disprove. That's irrelevant.

Jonoteague wrote:
The double-slit experiment has been repeated and verified, implying that observers have an influence on reality.

No, that is not the implication. It's a collapse of probabilities. We are hardwired to think in concrete physical terms, while quantum mechanics deals in probabilities. It takes a mental leap for us to think that you're sitting in one chair with a 50% probability and another with a 50% probability, but that until we collapse the probabilities you are really sitting in both of them. Observing "which one you sit in" doesn't jump you, it just establishes that from this point forward, you are sitting in one chair. That is no change to you, just to probabilities.
Schroedinger's cat really is alive and dead, and a single electron really passes through two slots. With a probability for what you'll observe that's decided before you observe.


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:12 am
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Jonoteague wrote:
We haven't been able to rule out a "conciousness created universe" yet ...

"Rule out"??? You mean rule in!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:27 am
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Jonoteague wrote:
Lightnin', wise man that he is...


Haven't been accused of that very often in my life so far... :oops: :oops: :lol: :lol:

Facts, Belief Systems both get a little blurry once you add in a dose of Philosophy to the mix, sometimes making it hard for many people to distinguish between them.

Quantum Mechanics and the Uncertainty Principle derived from a necessity to make equations 'work'.

To me it says that our knowledge of how the Universe works is still very imperfect and demonstrates how much we have yet to learn.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:54 pm
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Unlikely for the Strat being played in Space, and I don't believe any other electric has been used either, although a light interface could replace a heavy amp. But, along with a variety of music and general postings historically posted here, the very name Stratocaster has a connection to Space and we at least have this.




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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:39 am
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arth1 wrote:
We haven't been able to rule out an invisible pink unicorn hypothesis either. It's in the nature of the unprovable to be, well, unprovable.
Unless and until something has a real way of being either proven or disproven, it can safely be disregarded. We can work with things that we haven't able to disprove yet, but we can't work with anything we can never disprove. That's irrelevant.

Whether it be a Flying Spaghetti Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorn, another Deity; or simply an increasing tendency to complication in a purely mechanical universe - I wouldn't call it irrelevant. That our reality/universe might allow such improbabilities actually tells us much about the limits of what we do and do not know. It also tells us much about what the universe is or isn't. Relevance is limited, admittedly, in most experiments and theories.

arth1 wrote:
No, that is not the implication. It's a collapse of probabilities. We are hardwired to think in concrete physical terms, while quantum mechanics deals in probabilities. It takes a mental leap for us to think that you're sitting in one chair with a 50% probability and another with a 50% probability, but that until we collapse the probabilities you are really sitting in both of them. Observing "which one you sit in" doesn't jump you, it just establishes that from this point forward, you are sitting in one chair. That is no change to you, just to probabilities.
Schroedinger's cat really is alive and dead, and a single electron really passes through two slots. With a probability for what you'll observe that's decided before you observe.

Right. Observation itself affects something. If I understand you correctly, you have said observation collapses (affects) probabilities. Consciousness (the observer) affects reality.
I would argue that that is one implication.

Lightnin MN wrote:
To me it says that our knowledge of how the Universe works is still very imperfect and demonstrates how much we have yet to learn.

... and you haven't been accused of wisdom often? huh.


Now isn't this better than conspiracy theories? 8)
On a somewhat space-related note, I enjoyed Brian May's stereoscopic images of Pluto the other day. I'm sure that we'd all agree (or most of us, heh) that he's a pretty awesome guitarist. Being an astronomer just makes for more awesome. But the cherry on top is his quirky stereoscopic imaging sideline.
http://brianmay.com/brian/brianssb/brianssbjul15b.html#33


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:00 am
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Jonoteague wrote:
Right. Observation itself affects something. If I understand you correctly, you have said observation collapses (affects) probabilities. Consciousness (the observer) affects reality.
I would argue that that is one implication.


Sigh. No, it doesn't. It does not affect reality one bit. Collapsing the waveform kills the probabilities for the other outcomes. Nothing changes in our reality, because it already was so. The only things that changes is the maths.
And no consciousness is needed to collapse a waveform either. A simple mechanical process can do that. "Observer" in this context isn't anthropomorphizeable.


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:12 am
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DonX14 wrote:
Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Unlikely for the Strat being played in Space, and I don't believe any other electric has been used either, although a light interface could replace a heavy amp. But, along with a variety of music and general postings historically posted here, the very name Stratocaster has a connection to Space and we at least have this.



That was hilarious, Don. Thanks for the video from one of my favourite shows. Chris Hadfield would likely get a laugh out of it too. :D

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