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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:26 am
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First the moon. Now Mars. Water discovered on Mars?! :shock: Or is this also a conspiracy? :evil: I wonder what Martian would have said. :(
Now we can run a Keystone pipeline with that liquid to California to solve the droughts. Fill 'er up!
:lol:

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:57 am
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Water was discovered on Mars a long time ago. Previously we only confirmed that there was massive ice under the surface, and sometimes small puddles have been observed on the surface of the planet.

But the discovery of flowing water is new and important, not just because of the whole "possibility of alien life" thing, but more interesting to me would be the implications in regards to colonizing Mars. In the past we had to imagine colonists using some yet-to-be-invented gadget to harvest water from the ground or something. Just imagine if they could dam some water into a reservoir. :shock: Pretty crazy.

Oh, regarding conspiracy theories that turned out to be true?

Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment
Project MK-ULTRA
The Nayirah testimony
COINTELPRO


Any of this ring a bell?

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:53 am
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Hi, Strings. Yeah, I did know water had been discovered prior to this last announcement. I meant it more as a general statement; but, it may have gotten lost in my Canuck accent.

Flowing water would definitely be advantageous as you pointed out. Hence, the pipeline proposal. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:46 pm
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This latest whole 'Water on Mars' theory is very speculative at best.

If you read the paper in Nature Geoscience, you'd see that they didn't 'discover' water at all, they 'discovered' Salt.

I italicize 'discover' because it is based on an 'improved' (read un-proved) software which is claimed to be able to identify a substance from a single pixel of an image taken from a satellite orbiting thousands of miles above Mars surface.

It is all based on a lot of theorizing.

The Authors theorize that the salt is a Brine (salt + water), ergo water must be present. But salt is not only dissolvable in water, there are other substances too that can dissolve it.

One of the reasons water is so hard to find on Mars is that Mars lost it's atmosphere. It is our atmosphere which retains the water in our world. Without it, as on Mars, any liquid or vapor water would rapidly evaporate into Space.

There may well be remnant water still on Mars, but in a frozen state. If that water melts, it evaporates to Space in very short order.

If you have watched Mars research for the past 15 years, you'd see that every one of the discoveries made or announced was followed by an increase in NASA funding for Mars research.

NASA knows the PR value of making these very titillating announcements and tries to capitalize on each of them no matter how suspect or speculative they are.

Remember when NASA announced they had found evidence of Life on Mars? This was based solely on the discovery of microscopic fossils left by long decayed organic molecules (not even the molecules themselves). The Press took off with it, the People ate it up and NASA got their biggest budget increase in a decade.

I wonder whether the Senators or Congressmen who voted for the appropriation even realized that organic molecules are free-floating in Space (Earth is bombarded with them everyday) and while constituent building blocks of Life here on Earth, they are not Life itself.

What's the Big Deal about Life on other planets anyway?

Do you know what the greatest form of Life is on our planet? In both population and diversity it is Bacteria, the lowest form of Life. What use is it to Mankind to find a Planet is inhabited solely by Bacteria? If we can't eat it or put it down our Fuel Pipes, it's of little value.

Even so, it could never be brought to Earth anyway, we couldn't take the risk of it being an invasive species.

Of course, Intelligent Life would be a different story, but not a scintilla of evidence has ever been discovered that Intelligent Life exists elsewhere.

So while all these 'discoveries' may be interesting for Forum discussions, there really isn't any practical value to them.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:35 pm
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Lightnin MN wrote:
One of the reasons water is so hard to find on Mars is that Mars lost it's atmosphere. It is our atmosphere which retains the water in our world. Without it, as on Mars, any liquid or vapor water would rapidly evaporate into Space.

Not exactly. Evaporated water would be an atmosphere.
The problem is that sunlight splits 2xH2O into 2xH2 + O2, and the hydrogen is light enough to be stripped by the solar winds. The oxygen isn't, but quickly binds to other substances, like carbon, silicon and iron.
Mars actually has an atmosphere, which is much lighter than ours, and is more than 95% CO2.

Lightnin MN wrote:
There may well be remnant water still on Mars, but in a frozen state. If that water melts, it evaporates to Space in very short order.

Again, no, there is no evaporation of water into space, only a hydrogen loss. And there is liquid water on Mars. During summer, the surface temperature reaches a balmy 27C/80F in the tropics. And the water on Mars is highly saline - a brine, in fact - which makes the liquid range of Mars water go from -70C/-94F to 24C/75F.


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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:36 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Lightnin MN wrote:
One of the reasons water is so hard to find on Mars is that Mars lost it's atmosphere. It is our atmosphere which retains the water in our world. Without it, as on Mars, any liquid or vapor water would rapidly evaporate into Space.

Not exactly. Evaporated water would be an atmosphere.
The problem is that sunlight splits 2xH2O into 2xH2 + O2, and the hydrogen is light enough to be stripped by the solar winds. The oxygen isn't, but quickly binds to other substances, like carbon, silicon and iron.
Mars actually has an atmosphere, which is much lighter than ours, and is more than 95% CO2.

Lightnin MN wrote:
There may well be remnant water still on Mars, but in a frozen state. If that water melts, it evaporates to Space in very short order.

Again, no, there is no evaporation of water into space, only a hydrogen loss. And there is liquid water on Mars. During summer, the surface temperature reaches a balmy 27C/80F in the tropics. And the water on Mars is highly saline - a brine, in fact - which makes the liquid range of Mars water go from -70C/-94F to 24C/75F.


Uh... beg to disagree... :roll:

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:31 am
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Well according to the Planetary Science Institute ...

FAQ - Atmosphere

1. What makes an atmosphere? How can gases escape from a planet?
If you are big enough planet, like Jupiter or Saturn, you kept the atmosphere that was the remnants of the gas in the solar nebula when the planets were formed (mostly hydrogen and helium). The smaller, inner planets probably got their atmospheres from the outgassing that occurred as they cooled down (volcanoes). Some scientists think that much of the Earth's atmosphere came late in Earth's formation history and was brought in by the last of the impacts that formed the planet (comets and wet asteroids). In the case of Venus, it had what is called a runaway greenhouse. It got so hot that the surface water (if it ever had any) evaporated and more greenhouse gasses went into the atmosphere. As the atmopshere got even hotter, the surface rocks that contained carbonates heated up and put more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, another greenhouse gas.
How do planets lose their atmospheres? There are several ways: a large impact can literally blow off the atmosphere (probably happened to Mars). When you heat up the molecules in an atmosphere, the molecules move faster and some of them can escape (this is how we lose hydrogen). The hotter the atmosphere, the more molecules can escape. The smaller the object, the lower the gravity, so the escape velocity is lower and it is harder to retain an atmosphere (Moon and Mercury). Finally, you can lose atmosphere to the surface. The atmosphere can condense onto the surface (rain and snow). On Earth, much of the carbon dioxide that is normally generated is dissolved into the oceans.

2. How does an exosphere differ from the atmosphere?
The exosphere is the top of the atmosphere (the outer atmosphere) where molecules can move around with little chance of hitting other molecules. If they are moving fast enough, they can escape the atmosphere and go off into space. It starts at about 500 to 1,000 kilometers above the surface and extends out into space. For comparison, the International Space Station orbits at 350 kilometers above the surface of the Earth.

3. What causes the atmosphere to change so drastically from planet to planet?
There are two primary factors: size and distance from the Sun. Gravity helps planets and moons to hold on to their atmospheres, so small planets/moons such as Mars and the Moon have thin atmospheres. Also, if you are closer to the Sun, the atmosphere is hotter and the molecules are moving faster and so can reach escape velocity. This is why Mercury has no atmosphere, but much smaller and colder Pluto can still retain a thin atmosphere. There are other factors, too. Some moons have a thin atmosphere because they have some internal heat and thus volcanoes and geysers that can replenish their very thin atmospheres. Then there is Venus, where it got so hot (what is called a runaway greenhouse) that some of the rocks have boiled away. Earth and Venus have about the same amount of carbon dioxide, but on the Earth most of it is dissolved in water (no water on Venus) and in carbonate rocks. On Venus, all of the carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere.


Discuss! :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:12 pm
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arth1 wrote:
I have not heard of a single conspiracy theory that turned out to be true.

A letter from the FBI to Martin Luther King, Jr. basically urging him to commit suicide:
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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:43 pm
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Water on Mars?
not good...

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Post subject: Re: Apollo 11 On The Moon
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:35 pm
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arth1 wrote:
zontar wrote:
Actually that sort of thing is a good reason why most conspiracy theories are false.

"Most"? I have not heard of a single conspiracy theory that turned out to be true.
Apart from reverse ones, where people poke fun at the conspiracy theorists, like creating "crop circles" or putting backward messages on records.

Seriously?

Iran-Contra affair?
Tuskegee Syphilis experiments?
Operation Mockingbird?
Operation Northwoods?
WATERGATE????
Snowden's NSA revelations?
(I could go on ...)

It kind of begs the question: "Who is more gullible - those who believe in conspiracies, or those who don't?"


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