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Post subject: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:26 am
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This was bought to my attention today and I started to wonder what it might mean for companies like Fender.

http://www.natlawreview.com/article/mad ... -standards


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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:55 am
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The Left Coast does it again !! :lol: :lol: :lol:

It could just mean that Fender will no longer sell Guitars in California.. !! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Be Careful What You Wish For... :P :P :wink:

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:03 am
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Regarding amps:

Perhaps, but I think this factor is becoming less and less an issue with the masses. For those who hold it of utmost importance, there are the boutique builders (although their components may bring up issues) and the vintage amps.

Now that Peavey is transitioning to off shore builds, I can't think of a production amp that is "made in U.S.A." Country of origin doesn't matter much to me if the build quality is good, but the cheapening of the entire process often ensues, including labor, materials, and the design. The market has dictated it by buying the lesser costly products.

Guess we just have to get used to it and understand our choices (new production, boutique, or vintage).

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:15 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
It could just mean that Fender will no longer sell Guitars in California.. !!


Or it could mean that they will start telling the truth about the origins.

IANAL, but they appear to already be running afoul of the FTC guidelines in this respect - a criterion for being allowed to say Made in the USA is that "all or virtually all" materials are from the USA. Unless Fender has found domestic sources for exotic woods like rosewood, they seem to be in violation here.

If anything, the California statute is weaker than the FTC regulation, in that it allows the company to list the exceptions as long as it tells the truth.

And I do not think this will prevent Fender from selling anything in California. They already sell guitars in countries where they have to provide a list of all countries of origin.

Perhaps American consumers will be a little bit less misled, and can make their choices based on more information. If a company depends on not stating the sources, and will have to shut down sales if forced to tell the truth, I think that would be a company that doesn't deserve to continue operating.


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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:40 am
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It's a BS post so far as Fender is concerned.

Fender makes Great Guitars.

Players want Great Guitars.

Ipso Facto

So long as Marketing keeps stoking Consumerism with the concept that we continually have to strive for MORE, people are going to be price-driven as a means to acquire more with the same paycheck.

It's not the manufacturer's fault for seeking cheap labor or components, it's what we demand.

And, as long as we have a population where 53% redistribute Wealth, rather than Create it, the value of our Work won't rise to allow us to gain more w/o compromises resulting in low prices.

'Tis a very slippery $@!&#... (← This Forum software thinks I just used a Racial Slur :roll: :roll: , but you know the adage :wink: )

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:02 am
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To those of us in the trenches, this is not exactly earth-shattering news. In practical terms this has very little impact on guitars but due to their complexities, a more significant effect on amplifiers. A marginal part on a guitar can be easily replaced, often by the owner, but an amp with its innards filled with crap is more difficult to rectify.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:26 am
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An interesting article No457 Snowy, thank you for posting. 8)

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:12 pm
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It's funny, but that whole "Made In The USA" thing never meant that much to me, since I've had plenty of products that were/are good that aren't made here. As long as it works they way it should, who cares where it's from? I suppose if you were the nationalistic type, then it would be important. I'm just not and it has nothing to do with any politics what so ever.

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:11 pm
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PaulLF wrote:
As long as it works they way it should, who cares where it's from?

Some think that local sourcing helps reduce global pollution and resource depletion.
Others see a continuing trade deficit as something that will eventually have to be resolved through war, when large enough creditors like China one day decides to cash in the chits, or refuse to sell us products that we have made ourselves dependent on (like rare earth metals).
And some might want products that doesn't just work the way they should today, but in the future too, meaning that they have to be serviceable, not just replaceable. When depending on parts from an unnamed manufacturer in an unnamed country, that's not a given.


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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:14 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
but an amp with its innards filled with crap is more difficult to rectify.

I see what you did there... :P


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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:23 pm
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This reminds me of the Space program(s). They all have major global support without which would mean a no go. Armstrong's patriotic and political positioning of the Stars and Stripes deserves credit for sure, but other flags and country recognition could have been active; yet, just like the Fender USA affiliation, those in the know have an understanding for the full story and will, IMHO, give some slack accordingly.

NASA couldn't have existed without foreign involvement, and foreign involvement needs Fender and vice versa. NASA has the Canada Arm, and Fender has Canadian Maple necks :lol: But we, sometimes lesser patriotic Canucks, win out. We have American and other Fenders :D

In summary - it"s what the end result is and how it performs that counts.

Excuse me while I get back to my Amn Dlx.

Cheers!

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:39 pm
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
In summary - it"s what the end result is and how it performs that counts.


Others may disagree and think that how we get there is just as important - that the goal does not justify the means.


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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:51 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Fender Strat Brat wrote:
In summary - it"s what the end result is and how it performs that counts.


Others may disagree and think that how we get there is just as important - that the goal does not justify the means.

That may be the case, perfectly okay with me, and understandable. If only justifiable means were that simple all the time, arth1. I would prefer to see the quote say that sometimes the goal may not justify the means.

I am guilty of historically taking the same consideration at times (only to get burnt with misguided or ill informed emotion and allegiance). While it's common to reach out for your chosen item without thinking, or maybe thinking of the journey, age will likely play a part in that decision. When you are younger (or more affluent) a poor choice can more easily be corrected or upgraded, and politics and commercialism along with social issues can be influential. Later in life one, hopefully, learns that the motivations and answers are not as clear as often portrayed or promoted. Electric cars are not environmentally friendly . . . They are an alternative (with major oil company investment). Same goes for Mercury and oil based plastic light bulbs pushed off as environmentally wise (I've witnessed single glass incandescents in service running for over 100 years!). I could go on, but there lies the flip side of the coin. Still, these original thoughts are honourable to which I say, all things considered, I applaud individual choice.

IMHO, I would like to think appearance, playability, and sound would be the key factors towards the top of the list of requirements for choosing that cherished musical equipment. Cost may or may not be a concern (certainly for company prosperity it is). I would add repair ability and/or longevity, but, then we'd have to trash a great deal of our electronics and cars that are made and accepted today. Basically, we have three choices . . . Pay the Piper . . . Hope for an affordable quality chosen product . . . Or none of the preceding. To that we may be fortunate to add justifiable means, if we can recognize them. Followers are generally more trustworthy than leaders; but, followers don't usually have back room privileges.

On the moral issue. I once queried a clear cut protestor (whom I agreed with) why he and his friends had exotic wood instruments at the logging protest. :wink:

The next time you check that American amp, Fender or otherwise, look for American tubes amongst the foreign offerings. Even Groove tubes have a Slovakia connection.

And, finally, when productivity is not shared, there is always a risk of competition taking over, or at least cutting into the pie. Look at FMIC. :D


Peace!

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:01 am
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While ever there is the cheaper option people will buy it. They wont treasure it, because it was cheap, and in due course it will become land fill when something else cheap comes along which seems to be better.

As others have stated this is much of the problem to where we find ourselves globally, allied to people making money from doing nothing more than moving money.

Any road up - I applaud the concept of transparency of component origin. The consumer can then make up their mind based on the facts in hand.

I have been fascinated by the "My MIA Strat has a MIM switch". Why wouldn't it have? Why would Fender make two switches in different places if both are of equal quality? It seems bizarre that two generally identical guitars have parts which could be the same but aren't, (scratch plates, trems etc.). Personally I am pleased to see them consolidating their parts supply chain. It makes swapping parts much easier...even if, environmentally, it is potentially less friendly.

That aside, there are certainly significant environmental issues in moving materials and components all over the world. The Toyota Pious, doyenne of the tree hugger, has a ridiculous carbon footprint due to its component sourcing and processing. You would be doing more for the planet in resurrecting a neglected muscle car than buying a Pious.

But what can you do? Not much really. There can be all manner of global treaties to address environmental issues but inevitably countries and states will renege on these agreements if aspects disadvantage them more than others. And many of these cunning plans are but a drop in the ocean in the overall scheme of things.

Obviously cars and planes should be, and are, more frugal in their consumption of fossil fuels. Unfortunately if all cars burn half as much gas as they did 10 years ago, but you have three times as many cars, you are still burning more gas over all.

What is the solution? Make things more expensive. Tax imports to the point that people actively seek out locally sourced alternatives. Stop flooding the world with cheap disposable crap. If my power drill breaks down, do I fix it? No not generally because a complete new drill is often cheaper than the parts to repair the old (if I can get them). The new one probably wont last as long as the old but then its eventual replacement will be cheaper still. How is this good?

Don't make cheap amps that will become land fill, bristling with all manner of new (and generally useless) whistles and bells, just because you can. Make one good product that will last.

Fender have based their name on the American legend. So make it in America. OK so it will be more expensive but it will also have more value. It will be treasured and handed down from Father to son (as things were years ago). It wont be some Squire learner kit that will be binned 6 months later upgraded for a cheap MIM which will be replaced with an expensive MIM which will be replaced with a MIA etc.

Years ago houses had furniture, possessions, treasures which were handed down from generation to generation. Dining tables which might be 200 years old etc. How much stuff do we have in our homes now which is more than 25 years old?

Stuff isn't made to last these days because we want to buy it cheap. It's our fault.

I should think the planet will last me out.. but it isn't going to last a great deal longer the way we are going.

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Post subject: Re: "Made in USA" will Fender need to revise that?
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:18 am
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I would like to know who was behind pushing that bill thru. Completely unrealistic. There are very few products these days that are made totally of parts manufactured in the US.
Sorry boys but in order to have the lifestyle americans feel obliged to outsourcing has been a factor for many decades.
It also does not mean that outsourcing results in inferior parts. Quite the contrary in many instances. Simply put if a product is of a lesser quality than one just does not buy it. Simple solution.

As for the criteria of " Made In the USA " this will be another expensive debate with lawyers in the courts.
Listing that some parts are sourced offshore is also not a big deal. That is already listed on the components themselves , one just has to look.
But of course it seems the dumb it down police is hard at work further obfuscating the landscape. We have all known for years that much of the components are not made in the US.

The choice is buying a product for a competitive price or not at all. Long term, the company will no longer offer price points that can be met by the majority of its consumer base.
I'm all for bespoke, considering my profession, but how many people buying guitars today have the disposable income for $3,000 standard Stratocasters ?

This law is not a progressive move. It will not bring industries back to the US. That is a very complicated issue which has more to do with the cost of living in the US versus anything else...

BTW if your Apple I-phone or Macbook Pro was totally made and assembled in the US, can anyone give us a price. I know that the tech that came in to dial in our Cad cutter for well over 8 hours for 2 days billed out at $100+ per hour.... Yeah ....

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