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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 6:11 pm
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I once had a friend with a 57 Strat, it sounded great compared to my late 60's model, much deeper toned with less harshness to it, the tone of that 57 was simply awesome. So some of those older instruments did sound better than the newer ones of back then.

Disclaimer; I have an Agile Strat clone with Fender noiseless pickups in it, bought 4 or 5 years ago for $300 + $150 for the pup set. I would not trade that guitar for any instrument for playability and tone, but I sure would trade it for a 57. Not because a 57 sounds better, but because of it's monitory value, and believe me, the 57 would be for sale the minute I did the trade...... :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 8:36 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
I desagree that vintage car are better than new car.

It is a fact that heavy metal (not the music :lol: ) has been replaced by new car body's with limited longevity under a grinder, chrome that was subject to rust is replaced by plastic that peels, steel engine blocks are replaced by short lived aluminum blocks (there are Volvo steel block motors claiming a million miles on them and there is a car club that proves it.) New cars now have more recalls and spiffy secretive electronics that track our every move. I only hope our pedals and amps don't ever use this approach. Maybe, hookup from guitar amp to computer is already moving our personal data? Vintage might have the upper hand here. :shock:

And I own a modern Strat (because I believe IT is well built) and a modern modeling amp based on my current needs and present budget.

Just MHO.

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:52 pm
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JayWayman wrote:
My wife and I were out running erands yesterday and I was wearing my Stratocaster shirt. I sales guy in a store stopped me and asked if I play guitar. I explained that I did start a little over a year ago and that I did enjoy playing very much.

He asked me if I played a Stratocaster and I of course said that I do. He told me that he used to play years ago and played a vintage guitar Strat and he asked me if I played on a new or vintage guitar. I said new. He suggested that I try to get a vintage guitar and said that they sound better.

My question is what would make the vintage guitar a better sounding or playing guitar? I would think that with todays technology, the new guitars would be the best ever??? Not sure. I understand why the older guitars hold their value and all but are they really that much better?

Jay


Thanks for posting Jay. "what would make the vintage guitar a better sounding or playing guitar? " the player
"new guitars would be the best ever???" they are
" older guitars are really that much better?" no

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:10 pm
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We all know that some vintage instruments are not that great ... a perfect example being the CBS-era products. So, why are the pre-CBS so prized? Because there was a lot of care that went into the design and production that resulted in a lot of fine instruments. I have a "vintage" 1979 Gibson SG Standard -- very much a mass-produced guitar -- that is still arguably one of the best playing SG's on the planet. I can say that as I have played a million SGs over the years. It is my opinion that -- like wine -- there are good years for guitars, and some not so great. For SGs, 1967 is a particularly good year, as well as 1979. We all know the 1959 and 1960 Les Pauls are ridiculously sought after, as all the guitar lords of old (Page, Beck, Walsh, Gibbons, Allman, et al) went nuts for those guitars. My point is that it is not just they are "vintage" but WHAT vintage they are that makes them special ...

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:55 am
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tvr1979 wrote:
Houses years ago couldn't come close to meeting code of new construction today.


This is another that I have to COMPLETELY DISAGREE with. First and foremost understand this clearly - "codes" do NOT a house make. Older homes can be "brought up to code", however most newer homes lack the quality and craftsmanship that went into these older houses. In this case I can certainly speak from experience...the house my wife I and currently own was built in 1933 and among it's many attributes, we have some beautiful leaded glass windows, some of the loveliest (and most durable) plaster work you've ever seen, crown molding in the living and dining rooms, some of the finest lighting fixtures you've ever seen (mostly art deco), some lovely classic point work, hardwood floors in every room, hardwood stair case, and some really incredible hand stained wood work throughout the entire house....all of which has stood up well to more than 80 years now. Like cars, houses today have little sense of style and what's more is that they just aren't built to last this long...I suspect this house will still be standing long after many of those newer houses fall apart and get torn down from being safety hazards all because the quality just wasn't there to begin with.

Yes, some aspects of contemporary construction are better...newer windows for example are certainly more energy efficient than these old weighted plate windows and certainly I'll take modern Romax for powering my computers and my guitar amps over that old cloth covered wire (although that cloth stuff actually does a rather remarkable job if you keep within the confines of it's power rating) and PVC -may- have an advantage over clay pipes for running your waste water out to the sewers (assuming the PVC doesn't freeze and crack), however as the greatest whole, codes or otherwise, the construction of newer houses just doesn't hold a candle to some of these lovely old classics...today they just slap those suckers up in the matter of a few weeks and move on to the next...any sense of pride and craftsmanship in construction these days has long since gone the way of the Dodo. In terms of "quality", I'm sorry but cheap, thin gypsum board that you can easily put your fist thru just does NOT compare to this old hand troweled plaster, a "pre-fab" wall isn't nearly the same as one built by a good carpenter, cheap $10 Home Depot light fixtures are NOTHING compared with these highly ornate cast fixtures, laminate floors that start to break down in as little as 10 to 20 years are junk compared with hardwood floors that can last 100 years or more and it's nearly impossible to find leaded glass, quality crown molding or this kind of work work in most newer houses (unless a potential builder is willing to pay thru nose for it). I mean seriously...would you really like to tell me how one of those cheap "tub kits" that warp or break in 20 years is supposed to be superior to an enameled cast iron bath tub? Assuming the shower doesn't get remodeled by future owners, the tub in this house could EASILY be around a couple more centuries!

For the record here, my wife and I are relocating soon...she has to drive 155 miles round trip to work each day...and as such, I have looked at A LOT of houses in the past year. Point blank, newer construction does NOT compare...there's MUCH more that goes into the construction of a house than just "codes".


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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:25 am
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01GT eibach wrote:
My point is that it is not just they are "vintage" but WHAT vintage they are that makes them special ...

Much like wine or whisky, really. Only a fool would think that 30 years must be better than 20 without taking into account when, where, how and by who it was made. Some are, apparently, willing to drink swill at inflated prices, just because it's old.

Some changes over time have been necessary for legal reasons. The use of ivory, Brazilian rosewood, tortoiseshell and mercury switches, for example, are no longer viable. Especially the change in rosewood is rather drastic - Brazilian rosewood is much harder and oilier than the Indian and Honduran rosewood used today.
Other changes are due to material shortage and overall mechanical decline. We no longer have the materials or ability to make some of the things that we made in the past. The CuNiFe magnets in the early 70s wide range humbuckers, for example. Or the superfine flexible steel mesh in some early microphones. Only one machine survives in the world that can make mesh that fine and sturdy, and cost is prohibitive.

Other changes are actual improvements. Strings have become stronger, so we don't have to use .012 and higher to avoid breakage (but some still want them due to how they play). Locking tuners, Floyd Rose bridges, and pickguards that don't shrink and tear at the screw holes.

But the most important thing is always going to be the human factor. Humans have two qualities that machines don't have - they're slightly unpredictable, and they have various degrees of caring.
The unpredictability means that the more influence humans have on a product, the more variations there will be, for better and for worse. Where a machine may consistently churn out grade 8 instruments, a human may make a lot of grade 8s, some grade 7 and 9s, and an occasional grade 6 or 10. By not accepting human error leading to lower quality instruments / pickups / whatever, and replacing the humans with robots, companies will also prevent the most excellent ones from being made.
The "care" factor also affects what is produced. You can not expect someone who just works to put food on the table to produce the same quality as someone who does it because he has love and pride. If someone would be just as happy making cell phone covers as guitar parts, they won't show care. As long as it's "good enough", they don't get fired, and possibly get a bonus for volume, that's what they care about. Not the product and how it will work twenty years down the road.

And then there's consumerism. People don't think ahead as much anymore. They would rather have cheap and replaceable than expensive quality that requires maintenance. If cheap is what they want, cheap is what they'll get. Unfortunately, once the cheap has gained enough momentum, it bleeds over into the quality segment too, among other things because it's cost prohibitive to have several different supply chains, production methods, tooling and cells. So those 30 screws they save 5c on (multiplied by a million sales) eventually make it into the "high end" models too.

There will "always" be a market for quality, but the costs are going to go up and up, because the big players will focus on costs, and what the majority of buyers want. And they don't care about much more than price and blinkenlights.


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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 6:18 am
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tvr1979 wrote:
My belief is that anything today is made better than it was years ago, and keep in mind that whatever the old product is, it's had many years of time and abuse to degrade the hit or miss quality that was once there. For example, cars that weren't junk when new years ago were by the time they hit 60k miles. Houses years ago couldn't come close to meeting code of new construction today. Guitars were the same, unless made by hand by a master craftsman.


"cars that weren't junk when new years ago were by the time they hit 60k miles" - Tell that to the likes of MB, Volvo, VW, Rolls Royce or Checker... :lol:

"Houses years ago couldn't come close to meeting code of new construction today."

The proliferation of new building codes through the years were less to make better houses than to accommodate the profit-making ability of Building Materials companies and the political support of Union Labor.

Take the code requiring Hard-Wired Smoke Detectors for instance. This was was enacted because of a fear that people would not regularly change the batteries in their Smoke Detectors. Seems like a good idea right?

Well, these must be installed by certified (ie Union) electricians. Yet, according to the statistics of both the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and the U.S. Fire Administration (USFA), 47% (nearly half) of all Home fires are electrical in nature.

So, what happens when such a fire erupts? The first thing is the Breaker 'trips' leaving the Smoke Detector to rely on the battery (assuming it's a dual-power unit), which the owner may or may not have changed. If it's a Hard-wire only unit (usually Grandfathered in) it become totally inoperative - Great Code improvement there !

There is no way that Particle board or MDF is a better sheathing material than plywood longterm.

No, the codes mostly just make houses easier to build and insure steady employment for tradesmen (Unions).

cheers!

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Last edited by Lightnin MN on Mon May 04, 2015 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 8:35 am
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In 1963 I purchased my first Stratocaster. At that time, there was not much of a choice to make. With the number of variations available today, it would seem somewhere in the mix, one of the current models would provide the equivalent experience of a vintage Strat. I no longer have the 63, but the models I have today, appeal to me in all aspects of my 63. I think, personal preferences prevail.

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:54 am
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I understand why the older guitars hold their value and all but are they really that much better?


Home much of it is the VIBE of a playing / owning a good vintage axe? at 10 to 15 large, I can only say, I'll never know!

I've also read where the older magnets loose a bit of the properties and that can attribute to the sound of some of the older guitars. is it true? ha! I have no idea.

I've been playing for quite some time now, (1966) and I've had many guitars. There's really only one or two that I wish I'd kept, (mostly my 69 Telecaster.. Wish I still had that one!

Currently my oldest guitar is 1978 Alvarez Yari Dy74 Snowflake that is really a fantastic instrument. Is it truly "Vintage" 37 years old? dunno,

It's about 95% all original. I replaced the machine heads about 15 years ago, and upgraded the pickup system, and had some fret work done on it recently, but I don't think I'll ever sell that one, It won't bring enough $$$ return for it to be worth me selling it, so I just keep playing it. it sounds fantastic and it's aged well considering.

I also have a 20+ year old LP Standard that you'll have to bury with me which is hardly "vintage".. But I'd take that guitar ANY DAY over a 2015 LP standard.,, I'm not a fanboy of all the "improvements" Gibson forced on everyone.


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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:27 pm
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I honestly have to say that the VAST majority of people that I personally know that are fixated on vintage guitars and amps would have been better off spending their time and energy learning how to play their guitars better.

I started playing guitar in the mid-60's on what was at that time new (or slightly used) but is now called "vintage" guitars. I can't remember a single one that played any better that my new models. And they certainly didn't play as well right out of the box. If you don't think guitar manufacturing processes have seriously improved over time, try playing a japanese made electric from the 70's.

And as far as vintage guitars going up in price...well it's all in what the market decides. And the market is fickle. Right now we seem to be in a period of fad love for vintage stuff, so the prices are up. But fads can, and most likely will, change. So I wouldn't want to use that as an investment to fund my retirement.

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 7:04 pm
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lomitus wrote:
And as far as things like safety goes, if I had to be in a car accident, I'd rather be in an old Buick Roadmaster than some cheap little piece of crap Toyota ANY day! LOL!!!

I wouldn't. Which is safer, new car or old car? No contest.



Some day my new guitars will be 'vintage'. :mrgreen: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 8:57 pm
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dunedindragon wrote:
I honestly have to say that the VAST majority of people that I personally know that are fixated on vintage guitars and amps would have been better off spending their time and energy learning how to play their guitars better.

+1000

Too many folks think all the "Mojo" is in the instrument only...

But, aside from that....

I own and have played both vintage and new guitars... Are the old ones better made... no... not really... do they play better... no... not really... do they sound better... no... not really.

Frankly, I feel the newer ones are drastically improved in many ways... and the options available today for a guitar like a Stratocaster... with 9.5 radius necks... compound radius necks... noiseless pups... and poly finishes... yep... poly is cooler than nitro in my book... more durable... longer lasting... better protection...

I'm sure my "Poly" comment is going to def pee-o-leee a few folks... but, hey... I haven't heard a poly finished Strat that sounds like crap... if the Cat playing it has got his $@!& together in Chops-Ville...
just sayin...

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:12 am
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I honestly have to say that the VAST majority of people that I personally know that are fixated on vintage guitars and amps would have been better off spending their time and energy learning how to play their guitars better.

That is exactly how my reply started out....

but, then I decided I would tone it down a little bit so as not to stir the pot.


but yea, +1000


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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:43 am
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If new instruments ever get to the point where they can emulate vintage exactly, and that is not out of the question, then all that would remain would be looks and mojo, which isn't all that bad either.IMHO

Association (such as Jimi or B.B.) could play a part, however. I'd even go for that beat up "Trigger" of Willie's. I only wish I could gather their talent to go along with those axes. :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:52 am
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I have to get off topic and respond to Lightnin MN dis on unions. I've been happily retired for 11yrs with a very nice pension thanks to my employer and union. I also had a very good work experience for 32yrs, making a decent salary that allowed me to save through the years into retirement. I know many others my age that hate unions and they're still out there "picking s___ with the chickens" because they were left with nothing to fall back on when their expectations and promises made didn't materialize. Wish them well....keep up the good work!


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