It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:26 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 4:42 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:22 am
Posts: 30
My wife and I were out running erands yesterday and I was wearing my Stratocaster shirt. I sales guy in a store stopped me and asked if I play guitar. I explained that I did start a little over a year ago and that I did enjoy playing very much.

He asked me if I played a Stratocaster and I of course said that I do. He told me that he used to play years ago and played a vintage guitar Strat and he asked me if I played on a new or vintage guitar. I said new. He suggested that I try to get a vintage guitar and said that they sound better.

My question is what would make the vintage guitar a better sounding or playing guitar? I would think that with todays technology, the new guitars would be the best ever??? Not sure. I understand why the older guitars hold their value and all but are they really that much better?

Jay


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 4:56 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14049
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
Not all vintage guitar play better than a new top of the line Stratocaster .

Short answer ; yes most vintage ( mostly until end of '60) play better , why ?

Wood is better , bridge steel ( and hardware ? ) sound better . Paint don't muff the tone like new paint . Hand made winding of pickup may help if made by some worker at Fender , insulation of pickups wiring may help for the tone .


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 6:28 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 820
Location: Iowa, USA
Not sure what constitutes "Vintage"...but I can say this with 100% confidence:

My first electric guitar is a 1985 Harmony H80T (Strat copy). At the time, these guitars were your basic "starter" models, at a cheap price, found in large department stores (i.e.- Sears). I still have this guitar.

It is VERY well made. Very nice woods, finish, electronics, and hardware....could EASILY match the quality of todays MIM Strats.

Now; you go out and buy a $100.00 guitar today at Wal-Mart, Target, Sears, or even on-line music store, and the quality of everything on the guitar (in my opinion) is virtually unmanageable.
So, in the case of "low end" guitars....yes, 'Vintage' is 1,000 times better than 'New'.

As far as say, a 1962 Stratocaster vs. a 2014 62' Reissue Stratocaster goes? I have no idea, never heard the two compared.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 8:03 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
JayWayman wrote:
He suggested that I try to get a vintage guitar and said that they sound better.

My question is what would make the vintage guitar a better sounding or playing guitar? I would think that with todays technology, the new guitars would be the best ever??? Not sure. I understand why the older guitars hold their value and all but are they really that much better?

Jay


While there is some truth to the concept that vintage guitars sound better, it's also a rather loaded comment as well. The first thing to remember is that sound and tone are highly subjective concepts...no two people "hear" sound exactly the same way and what may sound truly awe inspiring to one person, may sound like total crap to the next. Very simply, not all people think vintage sounds "better"...just as some people prefer a Les Paul to a Strat, not everyone needs to sound like Buddy Holly and there are a great many folks who prefer a more contemporary sound. Second to that, it's also well worth remembering that just because it's "vintage" doesn't mean it actually sounds "good" (within the broad confines of that generalization). The simple truth here is that with any given brand and/or model in any given era, every guitar maker out there has made some "gems" and some "lemons". Along with that, unfortunately in the music world, the term "vintage" has become this rather broad generalization that can be rather difficult to define in and of itself. As an example, certainly 70's Strats are considered "vintage" but there's a great many people out there who wouldn't find these instruments comparable to Strats from the 60's or the 50's (in regards to vintage guitars specifically). I grew up in the 80's and when it comes to Fender, I remember well the days when people only wanted "pre-BS" Fender gear. Even within any of those given decades, again you can still find some instruments that are considerably better than others and some that are considerably worse...if anything, quality control back then wasn't anything near what it is today. Now a days, even Strats from the 80's (such as many of the MIJ's) are even considered "vintage"...after all, we're talking 30 year old instruments. Again though, that doesn't mean that ALL of them sound great or that any given guitar automatically sounds better or worse from any given instrument of the previous eras. As such, how exactly does one define "vintage" and how exactly does one claim that "vintage sounds better"? In other words, just as with new instruments, each guitar, regardless of it's era, should be evaluated on it's individual merits.

Now, not knowing the person you spoke with personally, there's another factor to consider here as well...the "purist mentality". There are a good many people out there who for whatever reason seem to think that if it's "old", it MUST sound better than anything new. I've known a few guys in my life who will play thru truly horrible sounding old amps in very poor condition, just because they actually believe that ALL solid state amps are to be avoided...even though a good ss sounds better to a lot of folks than a ratted out tube amp. In this case, it really has NOTHING to do with the quality of the sound as much as perception and preconception (or in this case, preconstipation and anal retentiveness, LOL)...they "believe" such gear sounds better, so to them it always will.

There's also other factors to consider here as well...consider price for example. Let's say that you found a genuine 1957 Fender Strat in decent condition and let's even assume that it's singularly the best sounding electric guitar that you have ever heard in your life...a sound soooooo sweet that just strumming the open strings brings a tear to your eye (LOL). Unless you're a collector or have ungodly amounts of money at your disposal, are you really gonna fork out up to $20,000 or more for that guitar?? I'm sure it's doable for some folks out there, but for a great many of us weekend warriors, that kind of bread is well beyond the limits of imagination. Even with something like an average '70's Strat, you could still be looking at as much as $2000 to $4000 or more depending on the condition of the instrument, the seller, the current market, etc.. Perhaps you've found an instrument there that does sound particularly sweet, however if your content with something like a $500 MIM Standard, you still need to weigh that cost difference into the equation.

Then of course we have the playability of the instrument as well. Again here, that personal taste factor plays a BIG role. In this case I'd use my own experience as an example...I've been playing for over 30 years now and I -KNOW- what I like in a given guitar. I've played a few genuine vintage Strats over the years...ala 60's and even a couple from the 50's. Flat out, I have yet to find one with a neck I actually like...a great many of those older instruments have really thick, chunky necks (call 'em baseball bats or boat oars) which do NOT appeal to my own personal taste. Those old deep "V" necks? Uhhggg...I hate 'em. In my case, while I'm a big guy (6'2', 240 lbs) I actually have rather smallish hands...my favorite neck profile is the contemporary C shape as found on the mid 90's MIM Standards. In other words, it wouldn't really matter to me how great a particular vintage Strat (or other brand/model) sounded if it was simply uncomfortable for me to play.

None of this even considers what a given "vintage" guitar may have gone thru in it's life time...was it played heavily every Saturday night for the past 40 years? Was it kept in a closet it's entire life? Is it all original or has it been modded and re-modded? All such factors certainly play a roll regarding how a given vintage instrument sounds.

As always, I would also remind people that how great ANY guitar sounds, vintage or otherwise, also depends on a number of other factors, particularly your amp and where you are playing. The general consensus is that even a cheap guitar will typically sound pretty decent thru a great amp, however even the most expensive Custom Shop instrument is gonna sound like do-do thru a cheap little practice amp. Likewise, even if you're using a really great guitar thru a really great amp, any nuances of that tone will likely be completely lost if you're doing a live show in a crowded bar on an average Saturday night....and the same goes double for recording. Unless you're content with playing quietly alone in your bedroom or basement studio, how great a given guitar sounds, regardless of whether it's vintage or not, is again a REALLY subjective thing.

So with those factors in mind, in the broadest, most general terms, "vintage" instruments do typically sound better to many people than contemporary instruments do. In general, a great deal of this does come down to materials and manufacturing techniques. Consider wood for example...as the wood in a given instrument ages, it's tonal properties tend to change and a great many people tend to find that "old wood" sounds better (which of course is subjective in itself). For that matter, some folks might argue that "kiln dried" versus naturally aged wood will have an effect on tone. With electric guitars, certainly the materials and techniques used to create pickups has changed...it could be argued that this is why you see so many companies (including Fender) trying to recreate those vintage pickups from the 50's and 60's. It's worth noting however that while we can analyze these pickups today...material composition, wire material and gauge, number of windings, etc., "back in the day" most of the pickups that people covet today were created by accident. What's more is that this perception of "great tone" is very much based on that...had pickups in the 50's been made with ceramic magnets and with a more contemporary sound, THAT could very well be the sound a great many people chase. In other words, had Buddy Holly of played a Strat with a more contemporary tone, would he of been any less the legend he is or would that be the sound so many people now covet. Hind site can have a rather interesting perspective when you turn it around :-).

Along with that last paragraph however, I would also add that again there's a preconception that has to be considered. There are a great many people in this world who, for various reasons (or whatever reasons) put value on things that are "old"...guitars or otherwise. In my own case here, I can certainly appreciate aesthetic concepts such as style...personally I have a great appreciation for 50's styling (except for those horrid green and pink bathrooms, LOL!) and even art deco styles from the 40's and earlier. As something of a car guy...yea...I just love "tail fins"! To me, a '57 Chevy Bel Air (or even a 210) is just sooooooooo much cooler than one of these hack job imports today with ridiculously large low profile rims and tires and obnoxious exhaust pipe resonators (I think I'm getting old, LOL!). Talk to someone who's into antiques and I'm sure they can tell you all about the appeal of a early century Singer treadle sewing machine (and that Egyptian motif was pretty cool). In this regard, I'm sure you could easily find a great many people who will tell you "they just don't build them like they used to" regardless of whether we're talking cars, guitars, furniture, stoves or coffee grinders! On the other hand...in this wonderful age of technology, one must also ask one's self, "Would I -really- prefer a Compac 286 or an old TRS-80 with a 2600 baud modem to my nice "modern" Intel i5 system with my high speed cable internet connection?". Contemporary has it's value too.

In guitar terms, one can easily take a decent Strat, do a few mods and end up with a guitar that sounds just as good, if not better than anything vintage. To paraphrase Mr. Einstein, "it's all relative" 8) .

Ultimately, in my never so humble opinion at least, it really comes down to -1- single element - personal taste. If you eliminate all other issues such as cost, preconceptions, collectors, etc., and you were to take 10 guitars - 5 vintage from various eras and 5 from more contemporary eras, assuming you hid the logo or where blind folded and you played them all thru the same amp, then which guitar sounded best and played best would simply be a matter of individual taste. While I have no evidence to back this up, if you used a broad enough cross section of guitar players, I suspect half would choose vintage and the other half would choose contemporary...6 of one, half dozen the other.

I won't speak for others here, but at the end of the day I play the instruments that feel the best in my hands and sound the best to my ears...and in my case, that's my mid 90's MIM's (most of which have been modded to my own personal taste).

These are, as always, my own personal opinions...in this case, ya got a buck and a half's worth instead of my usual $.02 :lol: .


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:15 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:38 am
Posts: 12978
Location: Canada
++++1 on '57 Chevies and '62 Strats.

lomitus pretty much hit the nail on the head with his observations of vintage versus new.

I've had personal experience with 50s Chevies and a '62 Strat (although I have not tried the clones).

My Dad had a '53 and '55 Chev, while his brother had a '57. Some years back my wife and I needed a second car so I went to make a deal on a '55 Nomad. This would have suited my needs as a hodad and Strat player with room for my drums. All was cool, but just when you think popularity would make parts and upkeep a given, I discovered tailgates were difficult to replace because few Nomads were available and good tailgates were rare . . . so Pontiac Safari tailgates (if you could find them) were the answer.

The moral to this story is - vintage is nice to have, but can you get original parts, or are the next best parts going to work for you or, perhaps, the next person?

Sometimes, the gamble is worth the choice. Regardless, it can still be a gamble.

As with vintage cars, you want to make sure the basics and prominent components are included and in good working order; otherwise, you're in for a whole lot of hurt.

You also want to consider where and how you will use your guitar. I wouldn't want to park my Classic car on a shopping cart parking lot. :lol:

Of course, there's always the fun factor. :D

_________________
Hello, big guitar. Meet my little fingers.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:38 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14049
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
I desagree that vintage car are better than new car.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:44 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
stratele52 wrote:
I desagree that vintage car are better than new car.


Vintage cars are certainly better looking than new cars. I'm so sick of the contemporary "melted Snickers Bar" styling that I could puke.

:evil:

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:01 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:14 pm
Posts: 2561
Retroverbial wrote:
Vintage cars are certainly better looking than new cars. I'm so sick of the contemporary "melted Snickers Bar" styling that I could puke.

:evil:

Arjay


+1k !!

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

And... You can actually work on them and maintain them without $30k worth of diagnostic gear and a degree in Electrical Engineering !!

cheers!

_________________
Image

'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:11 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14049
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
Retroverbial wrote:
stratele52 wrote:
I desagree that vintage car are better than new car.


Vintage cars are certainly better looking than new cars. I'm so sick of the contemporary "melted Snickers Bar" styling that I could puke.

:evil:



Arjay



Yes , they have just a nice looking .

Modern car , yes you need to be qualified , but they don't need more than gas an oil change twice a year if I look a all Toyotas on my family since long time .


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:15 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:14 pm
Posts: 2561
Sorry for ... didn't mean to hi-jack.

On point...

Vintage instruments have all the benefits mentioned here, but that is not to say that modern instruments are not without benefits too.

Innovations such as locking tuners, micro-tilt, precision neck radii, compound radii, etc. are all nice features.

Somewhere along the way though, people started to confuse Vintage with just plain used or old guitars.

Somehow, what used to be considered simply used instruments are now commanding 3X, 4X or more than the price of a modern instrument.

Many were dogs to begin with, or were worn hard through the years, but that's OK... we'll just call wear MOJO and jack the price up some more.

Still, there's no getting around it, it's not the Wand... it's the Magician !

Vintage or Modern, if you can play, you can play. If you can't, you can't !

cheers!

_________________
Image

'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:28 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
There's no question that Fender is producing some of the finest guitars they've ever built. Fit, finish, features, playability, and consistency are for the most part world-class.

Their amps OTOH......

Fuggedaboutit!

:x

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:54 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
Lightnin MN wrote:
Sorry for Somewhere along the way though, people started to confuse Vintage with just plain used or old guitars.

Somehow, what used to be considered simply used instruments are now commanding 3X, 4X or more than the price of a modern instrument.

Many were dogs to begin with, or were worn hard through the years, but that's OK... we'll just call wear MOJO and jack the price up some more.


+++1

I think that the best example of this can be seen on Craigslist, although I've been to many guitar shows where the same applies. While I can appreciate that the "collectors market" is indeed a very different thing from a players market, to look at some of the pure crap that people try to pawn off as somehow being "vintage" or "collectable...some of the ratty old Kays and Harmony's that people try to pass off as quality vintage instruments...OYE! I don't really have a problem with Harmony (or Kay), but they're just NOT worth no stinkin' $2500!

For that matter, the same goes for the term "rare"...just because it's rare or hard to find, shouldn't suggest it was quality or should command any premium price tag. A lot of that stuff was really junk to begin with but that doesn't stop some folks from thinking it some how has value (or trying to fool others into believing this).

Quote:
Still, there's no getting around it, it's not the Wand... it's the Magician !

Vintage or Modern, if you can play, you can play. If you can't, you can't !


Again - +++1

As I've said soooooooooooooo often over the years, it's not the gear, it's the person using it.

cheers![/quote]


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:17 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
stratele52 wrote:
I desagree that vintage car are better than new car.



Sorry but we'll have to agree to disagree there. I would take a vintage car in good shape over any average newer car on the market today. Not even considering aesthetic considerations (most new cars all look the same...dumb), they were easier to work on and given proper maintenance, ran just as well as new cars do. I had a friend who had a '62 Newport...you opened that hood and there was an ENGINE. It didn't take a freakin' rocket scientist to work on the damn thing (and regardless of what you may think, new cars break down too!). And as far as things like safety goes, if I had to be in a car accident, I'd rather be in an old Buick Roadmaster than some cheap little piece of crap Toyota ANY day! LOL!!! And while from a pragmatic point of view I do certainly appreciate good gas mileage, there's something to be said for the feel and raw horsepower of an old Pontiac 400 cu engine, such as my '73 Grand Prix had...the only car I've ever had that would go into passing gear at 120 mph! Some days I really miss that old beater....

When you factor in vintage styling...again, I'll take vintage ANY day. Cars today have gotten to the point that half the time you can't tell a Ford from a Chevy from a Kia at first glance (or second glance)...they're all these idiot bubbles with wheels. Just no sense of style at all...even a Ford Pinto or an old Chevy Vega had more style.

The sad truth is that these days, a great many people (kids) honestly wouldn't know "cool" if it bit them in the butt. '32 T-bucket - cool. '57 Chevy - cool. '65 Mustang - cool. '69 Superbird - VERY cool. A '94 Toyata - err...not.


oye...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 2:15 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:15 pm
Posts: 603
My belief is that anything today is made better than it was years ago, and keep in mind that whatever the old product is, it's had many years of time and abuse to degrade the hit or miss quality that was once there. For example, cars that weren't junk when new years ago were by the time they hit 60k miles. Houses years ago couldn't come close to meeting code of new construction today. Guitars were the same, unless made by hand by a master craftsman.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Question about vintage vs. new
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 5:13 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:54 am
Posts: 2573
Location: Laurel, MD
JayWayman wrote:
My wife and I were out running erands yesterday and I was wearing my Stratocaster shirt. I sales guy in a store stopped me and asked if I play guitar. I explained that I did start a little over a year ago and that I did enjoy playing very much.

He asked me if I played a Stratocaster and I of course said that I do. He told me that he used to play years ago and played a vintage guitar Strat and he asked me if I played on a new or vintage guitar. I said new. He suggested that I try to get a vintage guitar and said that they sound better.

My question is what would make the vintage guitar a better sounding or playing guitar? I would think that with todays technology, the new guitars would be the best ever??? Not sure. I understand why the older guitars hold their value and all but are they really that much better?

Jay


This is the eternal question. The truth being that is all in the ear and hands of the beholder. I've played vintage and new guitars that were wonderful, and many that were aweful. I've owned several '70s era Strats, some played wondefully, while others sucked.

There are some actual advantages and disadvantages to both, vintage and new Fenders.
Vintage -
Pro:
Classic tone and craftsmenship
historical vibe (the necks feel really broken in and comforable)
Collectability - They increase in value over time

Cons:
Not as much product consistancy and new guitars
Finishes wear through
Parts can be wornout or stripped over time
1950s through the early '70s, Body end adjustments (a real pain in the butt)
non-biflex truss rod (you can only turn it one way)

New-
Pros:
Consistancy in the product
two point vibrato for Strats
bi-flex truss rod.
Micro tilt neck adjustment (Almost never used, but nice to have)
You get all benefits of years of tweeking and moving bugs (again bi-flex truss rod comes to mind)

Cons:
You're missing all that mojo
The finishes look great, but they don't get that cool reliced look that vinage guitars get. Paint doesn't wear smooth, it just chips off and lookd crappy.
The bodies don't quite resinate as well as vintage instruments (late '70s Strats had pretty thick paint, so they never really resinated. Again some sound great, so take them on a case-by-case basis).

I own a '75 sunburst Strat I love. It has THE Strat sound I hear in my head. I also own 2015 Dlx Strat Plus with N3 noiseless pickups. It doesn't as much like a Strat to me, but it sounds good. I've owned several guitars that I just didn't connect with. There was nothing worng with them, I just didn't feel a connection. I find that when I play a guitar, I know within minutes of playing it whether I want it or not. Whether I keep or not is another question all together.

I hope this all helps. The bottom line is, buying and owning a guitar is a very personal thing. If you like what you've got, keep it. If you find a vinage instruments you like, get it, but don't sell or trade the first to get it. You my regret it.

If you find a vintage instrument you like, go online first and learn as much as you can about it before you buy. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!! If you're worried that the guitar may get sold, put some money down on it to hold for a day or so. When you do deside that it's ligit, have the seller take the guitar apart. Strats and Teles are easy to fake, accept when you open them up. pickup routes, electronics and some aspects of the necks and bodies are harder to fake. And when in doubt, contact people on the forum. There are a lot of people here who know what they are looking at. Detailed photos are a must. Good lick!


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: