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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:47 am
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For small gigs these days, I often use either my Bugera V22 or my Princeton 112+, mainly depending on how much power I need. The Bugera is a great sounding amp, but with only 22 watts I usually have to push her pretty hard even for a smaller show (which is fine for the crunch, but can be challenging when I need the clean tones). The Princeton on the other hand still sounds decent, has a bit more power and it's also easier to haul around as well...and being physically smaller, I can just set it on a chair or a table and don't need to bring my amp stand with me. That said, depending on the show (and the material I may be doing at a given show), I've also used my Lab as well...after all, you can always turn the amp down 8) .

For larger gigs, it's my Lab L5 all the way...great sounding amp, very flexible and MORE than enough power for just about any venue I might play in.


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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:19 am
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I guess I don't understand the question. I use a Mustang IV, version 2 amp for both small and larger gigs. In small club situations it's not mic'd through the PA, in larger venues it is. So why would you want different amps? The stage mix would be the same regardless. This isn't 1970 you know... 8)

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:42 am
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I'm using a Mustang III (v1). I go into a channel on the PA for both small and large gigs via a "RedBox" out of the "Effects Send" output. Works unbelievably well... and it sounds incredibly good. Sure, the MIII is powerful enough to not need going into a channel on the PA for smaller gigs but, I don't like being sandblasted by my stage volume anymore (or sandblasting the hair off the heads of folks up close in the audience).

If you're totally into tube amps and can't go with an SS amp for whatever reason... A decent Blues Jr.... Princeton... Deluxe reverb type/size lower watt amp should work decent. They take pedals well and are not too big in size for smaller stages and rooms however, dialing in the amp to an early "Breakup" point can still be a little problematic in Volume-Land. At least, for me, this is the case.

But I will admit... I get all of those amps and more with the MIII. To each his own... 8)

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:45 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
In small club situations it's not mic'd through the PA, in larger venues it is.

So what do you do if you can't mic your amp? Say your PA only has 4 channels...and you have a singer on each channel? What do you do in a vocal heavy band where you need to hear the vocals thru the PA and NOT the guitarist? What do you do if you need more flexibility than a single amp can give you? What do you do if you don't want your guitar buried under the vocal mix? Are you simply assuming that everyone has a 16 channel, 8 buss board so that everyone can have their own custom monitor mix?

Is it not easier to simply use the proper sized amp for a given gig?

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So why would you want different amps?

Very simply, the right tool for the right job. You comment suggests that there's 1 "do it all" guitar amp out there...which clearly just isn't the case. In other words, what you're trying to suggest is that ALL carpenters should only need -1- hammer and that this hammer should just have various attachments...but it doesn't work that way for many people.

I can't speak for others, but personally the rig I use...both guitar and PA...primarily depends on the the situation or gig. If I were doing a solo gig...say a small coffee house for example, I'd use an entirely different setup (both guitar and PA) than I would playing with a rock band at a large bar/club. For a small solo gig where it just may be me and an acoustic guitar, running both thru the monitors is just fine, however if I'm working in a band where we may be doing a great deal of harmonies, then having JUST the vocals thru the monitors becomes a priority. In most cases, I don't really need to hear my guitar amp in order to play guitar well...and for those times I do need to hear my guitar, I can always go and stand in front of my amp. When it comes to vocals however I (and others I'm sure) do need to hear the vocals thru the monitors in order to sing well...particularly if I'm harmonizing.

I would also be so bold as to suggest that wow...different people simply have different needs in different situations. If I'm just sitting here at my computer practicing or jamming along with MP3's, then my little Roland Microcube works just fine...in fact my wife would probably have my balls if I brought one of the larger amps up here to the office (LOL)! That little Roland however isn't really suitable to use at ANY gig. So yea, personally I have one or two little "practice amps", I have a couple of amps that I favor for smaller gigs and a couple of amps that I use for larger shows...and likewise, any given amp I may use for recording usually depends on what I'm recording. Again, the right tool for the right job.

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The stage mix would be the same regardless

I have to completely disagree with this. If my amp is on the left side of the stage and the bass player's amp is on the right side of the stage with the vocals coming thru the monitors, then the stage mix is NOT the same as if everything were coming thru the monitors. By having everything separated in the mix on stage, I can walk around the stage and listen to what I need to listen to. In situations where you have everything running thru the monitors however, very often you can end up with a rather muddled mix on stage where no one can hear themselves. Ask any decent experienced sound guy and I suspect he can tell you stories about all the times he (she) has had someone bitching "turn me up...I can't hear myself on the monitors".


Quote:
This isn't 1970 you know... 8)


Your right...it's not. These days I often use a midi guitar synth for larger shows (which I run thru my L5), however I don't always need that same rig at EVERY show. For a smaller show I can easily use a smaller rig which is MUCH easier to haul around. Again the right tool for the right job.

That said, I also have to say that the simplicity of a PA rig such as you'd find in the 1970's certainly has it's advantages. Again I won't speak for others, however there's a great something to be said for just using a fairly simple PA...ya walk in, set a small powered PA head on a chair or crate, plug in the speakers, monitors and mics and with a few tweaks, you're up and running. If you use the proper size amp for a given gig, then there's no need to run it into the monitors...even for a medium to large size club, it's nice to have JUST the vocals coming thru the monitors. Why use something more complicated than that if you don't really need it?


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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:32 pm
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yodacaster wrote:
I use this, my Traynor YCV40WR.

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Most small clubs would crap their pants if I brought this instead.

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I have to say that's pretty bad $@!! 8) You should and crank it to 10. :twisted:

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:05 pm
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Miami Mike wrote:
yodacaster wrote:
I use this, my Traynor YCV40WR.

Image


Swapping out the stock Celestion for an Eminence Texas Heat makes that one a screamer!


This one has the Vintage 30 in it, which I liked better than the Classic Celestion. If the Eminence scerams better than the V 30, you've given me something to think about!

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:05 pm
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yodacaster wrote:
This one has the Vintage 30 in it, which I liked better than the Classic Celestion. If the Eminence scerams better than the V 30, you've given me something to think about!

It's all up to personal taste, I think. I absolutely love the V30 in my Orange - it's refreshing as a combat boot to the face, while still being solid in the bass end.

A fellow player here put some Cannabis Rex speakers in his 4x12 cab, and I was completely underwhelmed. It was all mid-range, but then again with what he plays that might have been the right choice for cutting through. Personally, I need to be able to hit the drop-D low D and have the stage reverberate. Tastes and playing styles differ.


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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:14 pm
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Ibanez TSA30H head and a Jazz-voiced 1X12" cab created by a guy in Vermont although for nearly acoustic gigs, I've used my Champ SCXD. For bass, a GK MB212 -- it's 500W but very light.


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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:54 am
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lomitus wrote:
dunedindragon wrote:
In small club situations it's not mic'd through the PA, in larger venues it is.

So what do you do if you can't mic your amp? Say your PA only has 4 channels...and you have a singer on each channel? What do you do in a vocal heavy band where you need to hear the vocals thru the PA and NOT the guitarist? What do you do if you need more flexibility than a single amp can give you? What do you do if you don't want your guitar buried under the vocal mix? Are you simply assuming that everyone has a 16 channel, 8 buss board so that everyone can have their own custom monitor mix?

Is it not easier to simply use the proper sized amp for a given gig?


Why, in a larger venue, would you end up using a 4 channel mixing board? That's what I'm talking about. Guitar amps aren't made for projecting sound in the same way as PA speakers. I can understand in a small venue the stage sound is enough to fill the room so all you need to project are voices. In a larger venue (such as an outdoor concert or large hall) if you're using an insufficient PA and depending on the amps rather than the FOH to fill the space, then you're not going to have the same vocal and instrument mix in the first row as you will in the back row. That's why you mic the instruments. And if it's big enough that you need to mic the instruments then why would you need more instrument volume than you would in a small gig where they aren't mic'd? You only need enough volume so that you can hear each other. The PA does the heavy lifing.

Alternatively you can become the prototypical nemesis of the sound man as the guitar player that comes to the concert with his Marshall stack turned up to "11" therefore making it impossible to get him blended into the FOH mix with the rest of the band due to his stage bleed over the PA. I know in that case I typically just mute him out of the FOH mix altogether and the audience up front will mostly just hear his guitar and the audience in back will hear the rest of the band mixed appropriately, but without much guitar. Maybe 1/3 of the audience in the middle will get a good mix. There's not much else you can do in that situation.

One question for you though, do you bring bigger or smaller drums depending on the venue also?? :lol:

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:36 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
.....One question for you though, do you bring bigger or smaller drums depending on the venue also?? :lol:

As a matter of fact, our drummer uses electronic drums. Just twist the volume knob to suit!

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:49 am
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I hate electronic drums.
I played with a drummer who sold his beautiful Ludwigs and bought some Roland pads. Top of the line Roland, mind you but still, not drums. His sound went from stellar to unacceptable overnight. What do you say to a guy, your friend and bandmate, who makes a dumb-ass move like that and is so proud of his achievement? Suffice to say there were some awkward moments.

Friends don't let friends play electronic drums.

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:02 am
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Respect your right to an opinion, but I believe few (if any) could id acoustic vs. our drummers' Roland electronic drums in a blind test (observing from FOH). I was skeptical, but amazed the first time I heard them. Of course, the on-stage percussive effect isn't there, but that is most of the volume related problems. Not much difference compared to listening to a drummer on a CD.

BTW, he kept his acoustic set.

Edit: There is a way to retain the percussive effect, which he demo'd to us the first time he played the electronic drums. That was by playing them through a fairly large Peavey SS amp (can't remember if it was for a keyboard or bass). It had that same 'hit-you-in-the-face' effect as acoustic drums, but the volume returned to the typical problematic situation with drummers.

Many of our preferences are a result of habit and/or an established comfort zone.

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:02 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I hate electronic drums.
I played with a drummer who sold his beautiful Ludwigs and bought some Roland pads. Top of the line Roland, mind you but still, not drums. His sound went from stellar to unacceptable overnight. What do you say to a guy, your friend and bandmate, who makes a dumb-ass move like that and is so proud of his achievement? Suffice to say there were some awkward moments.

Friends don't let friends play electronic drums.


I prefer the sound of acoustic drums, but when your drummer is a heavy hitter and you need to turn up to his level, electronic drums are really nice to have to keep the volume at a reasonable level.
This really applies to the jam space as opposed to a gig, but e-drums will fit better in a small club.

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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:24 am
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yodacaster wrote:
I prefer the sound of acoustic drums, but when your drummer is a heavy hitter and you need to turn up to his level, electronic drums are really nice to have to keep the volume at a reasonable level.

There are sounds like brushes or clacking the drumstick against the metal ring (I'm sure drummers have a technical term for it) that electronic pedals don't do well. At least not yet.

But if you just want to reduce his volume, and adding mutes isn't an option, hide his drumsticks. :twisted:



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Post subject: Re: What amp are you using for smaller club gigs?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:31 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
Why, in a larger venue, would you end up using a 4 channel mixing board? That's what I'm talking about. Guitar amps aren't made for projecting sound in the same way as PA speakers. I can understand in a small venue the stage sound is enough to fill the room so all you need to project are voices. In a larger venue (such as an outdoor concert or large hall) if you're using an insufficient PA and depending on the amps rather than the FOH to fill the space, then you're not going to have the same vocal and instrument mix in the first row as you will in the back row. That's why you mic the instruments. And if it's big enough that you need to mic the instruments then why would you need more instrument volume than you would in a small gig where they aren't mic'd? You only need enough volume so that you can hear each other. The PA does the heavy lifing.

Alternatively you can become the prototypical nemesis of the sound man as the guitar player that comes to the concert with his Marshall stack turned up to "11" therefore making it impossible to get him blended into the FOH mix with the rest of the band due to his stage bleed over the PA. I know in that case I typically just mute him out of the FOH mix altogether and the audience up front will mostly just hear his guitar and the audience in back will hear the rest of the band mixed appropriately, but without much guitar. Maybe 1/3 of the audience in the middle will get a good mix. There's not much else you can do in that situation.

One question for you though, do you bring bigger or smaller drums depending on the venue also?? :lol:


Ok...I think the problem here is our definitions of "large" and "small" venues.

First off, in my mind, "a concert", such as an outdoor show where you may be playing to a 1000 people or more is NOT the same thing as an average club gig. In such a case, you are correct in that there would be a sound man out front with a large mixing board and everything would be running thru the mains etc.. In such a case, yea, the amp you use is pretty irreverent as chances are you're gonna have your own monitor with your own mix. That said however, the average gig for any of the bands I've played in is typically MUCH smaller...local bars and clubs, etc...and we NEVER have a sound man or anything of that nature (nor do we really need one). In most cases, I'm plugged into one of my amps on stage (with the amp I choose being based on the size of the club), the bass player is plugged into his rig and the PA system consists of a small powered head (400 watts) with 2 mains and 2 monitors (if we have more than 4 people on stage singing, we'll add an extra pair of monitors)...the only thing that really goes thru the PA is the vocals. 9.5 out of 10 times, we're very old school about it with the PA head on stage with either the bass player or myself "running sound". In such cases, the size of the amp plays a MUCH larger roll depending on the size of the venue and as such, having different sized amps can be a HUGE benefit (the right tool and so on).

Now to define this a bit more, when I think of a "small" venue, I think coffee shop or small bar, etc., with an audience of only 50 people or less. Last year one of my bands actually did a graduation party where there was perhaps 25 - 30 people tops...we were setup in a tent in someone's driveway and we did two 1 hour sets (turned out to be the easiest $100 I've ever made...and the food was fantastic!, LOL). Year before last we did a show in a 12 lane bowling alley that was in the basement of a local bar (it was actually a retirement party)...probably weren't more than 50 or 60 people there (didn't even get payed for that one as it was for the front man's father...food and drink only, but it was A LOT of fun!). In such instances, there's certainly no reason to run ANYTHING other than the vocals thru the PA and I certainly don't need a "large" amp at all...chances are my Lab would have blown the walls out place like that, LOL! For the bowling alley gig, I just used my little Princeton and it was just fine. For that matter my wife and I once did a solo acoustic gig where I didn't even use an amp...small PA with 2 mics and my acoustic plugged into the PA head. We played for an hour and made $50 each. For that matter, waaaaay back in the day I even did a couple shows where I didn't even use a PA...I used my old Bandmaster with the guitar on one channel and a mic plugged into the other...there were perhaps 15 - 20 people in the room, so I didn't need anything else.

Conversely, when I think "large" club, I'm thinking a venue that may hold 300 - 500 people...in such a case I will certainly use a larger amp (thus the need in my mind for different amps), however we're still NOT running everything thru the mains...in such cases (with a rare exception or two), the vocals are still the only thing going thru the mains (so we can hear ourselves singing and harmonize properly). We may run an acoustic guitar thru the mains, but most of the time it's just the vocals. Even here, there's no reason at all to run everything into the mains, let alone have a sound man. Again, very old school (ain't no school like the old school baby! LOL!).

And in fact, yes...we have actually scaled the drum kit based on the size of the venue. For most average shows our drummer (in either band) typically uses a 5 or 6 piece kit, however the one tavern we've played at regularly doesn't even have "a stage"...they just move a couple of tables out of the way so the band can set up (and yea, we're pretty much sitting in each other's laps...). In that joint, the drummer was only able to use a bass drum, snare, 1 tom, hats, 1 cymbal and a ride with the drums and cymbals well muted....VERY compact because of the space limitation and very low volume. -IF- we were playing a concert, then yes, the drummer would be mic'd and the drummer could use as much of a kit (or as little) as he chooses, however again, that's a very different situation. For an average club gig...large or small...there's just no need for it at all.


I can't speak to other cities, but here in the Cleveland Ohio area, the vast majority of the clubs that a given local band may play in is typically a place where you may have 100 to 150 people...often less. There are larger clubs such as the House of Blues and Nautica (and back in the day, the old Cleveland and Akron Agoras), but those places are typically reserved for the big name acts (I got to see Meatloaf at the Cleveland Agora...GREAT show). Around here, the majority of us weekend warriors play "bars", so it really is a very different approach and mind set than doing "concerts". I simply scale my rig based on the size of the club, so having multiple amps is rather important.


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