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Post subject: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:48 am
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Ok...this one's for you modders and repair junkies out there.....

As I mentioned in another thread, yesterday I snagged an Eleca semi-hollow in a trade...I got it for a cheap Squier Strat that I had only payed $40 for, so figured if nothing else, the parts on this Eleca were well worth it. Except for the neck, over all the guitar is actually in pretty decent shape...pretty nice guitar really. Needed a good cleaning and a couple of the control pots are loose, but nothing terribly major...except the neck.

When I first looked at the guitar, the neck had a serious counter-bow...it was clear that someone had REALLY torqued down on the truss rod (the guy I got it from said he got it that way, but didn't realize the problem until after he got it home). Fortunately the truss rod didn't break or strip and with a bit of effort...and the help of a ball end Allen head...I was able to get the truss to loosen up and the neck came back to a more proper position.....almost. As it turns out, there is a bit of a "hump" in the middle of the neck, right around the 5th, 6th and 7th frets. I have the neck back to the point that she'll play open chords and such in the first position and "the dusty end" of the fretboard isn't too bad, but she fret's out really bad around those 3 or 4 frets....much more than a simple fret dressing could fix.

Now honestly here, I'm not sure if maybe the neck was starting to warp (it is a low end guitar after all) and the guy he got it from simply cranked down on the neck to try and compensate or if maybe this hump was caused by the neck simply being over-torqued to begin with...6 of one, half dozen the other. Now that I have the truss rod loosened up, I'm gonna wait a few days and see if the wood will "relax" a bit, however I suspect that I may very well end up having to pull the frets and re-level the fretboard (then reinstall and dress the frets). Not a super-huge deal...I CAN do it...but it's also quite a bit of work for an otherwise inexpensive guitar as well...if I were doing this work for someone else, I'd charge them WAY more than the guitar is worth (LOL!). That said, I'm willing to put the effort in to this if I have to (if nothing else, it'll be some good practice and experience), however I'm wondering if there might be an easier way to address this that I haven't thought of.

As such, I'm wondering if anyone has any other thoughts or ideas here before I start pulling frets...maybe some steam and a few clamps or something...kind of "sandwich" the neck between some straight boards or something to get it to flatten out a bit?



Thoughts/suggestions?


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:51 am
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I'm assuming you don't mean it just has a serious forward bow but after reading your post, I can't tell what you're actually trying to fix. I read "warped" as askew,,, or is this just a massive bow that you are trying to bring back?

if it's askew, That will need to be heated, if you don't have a heated neck jig to do to the job, then you may not have much luck with a DIY. I think for a bow that the truss can't fix a heat job can repair that too.

You could take it some where, but IME, once a neck goes totally askew, it may never "come back" true. a decent repair guy should be able to asses it.

I think if you take the top off the truss rod, you can probably add a few small washers to give the truss rod more play. (check the Dan Earlwine repair books, I'm pretty sure he's talked about that in some of them)


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:24 am
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a picture would help

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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:01 pm
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KidBlast wrote:
I'm assuming you don't mean it just has a serious forward bow but after reading your post, I can't tell what you're actually trying to fix. I read "warped" as askew,,, or is this just a massive bow that you are trying to bring back?

if it's askew, That will need to be heated, if you don't have a heated neck jig to do to the job, then you may not have much luck with a DIY. I think for a bow that the truss can't fix a heat job can repair that too.

You could take it some where, but IME, once a neck goes totally askew, it may never "come back" true. a decent repair guy should be able to asses it.

I think if you take the top off the truss rod, you can probably add a few small washers to give the truss rod more play. (check the Dan Earlwine repair books, I'm pretty sure he's talked about that in some of them)



Sorry I hadn't made that clear. No, it's not just bowed the way a neck might get if the truss rod were under-tightened (or if you changed to ridiculously heavy strings or something). Again when I first got the guitar yesterday afternoon, it was seriously counter-bowed...as in the headstock was pulled too far back...because someone had cranked the truss rod down REALLY tight. The strings were laying flat on the fretboard, like someone lowered the bridge too much, however the neck was very clearly pulled back too far (looking down the side of the neck you could easily see it was bending backwards). Once I got the truss rod to break-free/loosen up, the neck started to bow forwards (as you'd expect) but when I started snugging it down again to get it reasonably straight is when I noticed this "hump" in the middle of the neck. If I loosen the truss rod so that those middle frets are playable, the action at the top and bottom of the neck are too high...it's definitely a problem at the middle of the neck.

To tell ya the truth, it's a bit hard to describe as I've never really seen a neck do this before. I've seen necks twist and such (always tragic) and I have an old Kay acoustic that has a serious bow as it was made in 1938 before truss rods were around....but this one is a bit weird. I can't really post any pics at the moment (not even sure the problem would come thru effectively in pics), however to try and visualize this, draw a straight line that would represent a side view of the neck. Now draw a little bit of an arc above the neck between the 5th and 8th frets. Like I said...a bit of a hump right in the middle of the neck.

...I know...it sounds like the truss rod is still too tight, however this hump is there no matter how loose the truss rod is.

I would also add that this little problem isn't "severe"...I haven't measured it, but we're talking maybe a 1/16 of an inch here, but it's just enough to cause those few frets to rub into the strings with the action otherwise set properly. If push comes to shove, I'm sure I could just level the whole fretboard as I mentioned originally and it would be fine...again just trying to see if there might be another way to address this. Just wanna explore some options before I break out the ol' sanding stick :-).

While I don't have a jig specifically, that's essentially what I was thinking (the "sandwich" idea I mentioned). I'm thinking I could make a jig (of sorts) and instead of having the jig heated, that I could steam the neck with it clamped in the jig...basically press it back into shape (which is what I think you're suggesting more or less).

For that matter, I have access to a shot bot up at the local college (along with the 3d experience to use it), so I could...in theory...just build a jig to hold the whole guitar and just re-machine the fretboard. Assuming that what ever caused the problem in the first place doesn't happen again, there's MORE than enough stock on that fretboard to pull this off.

Anyways, I hope that clarifies the issue...and I will take a look at the Earlwine books...if for no other reason, it's been a while since I've read them. Thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:05 am
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ok so it's bowed. yea there is a way to make a jig for it. and it is outlined in one of Dan's fantastic books.

Straight edge, a few c clamps and a few blocks to use on the back of the neck to keep the clamps from messing up the back of the neck.

These rescue projects are always a bit of an intrigue..
Good luck!


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:46 am
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First keep it stringed, tuned to pitch, truss rod loose - might take a few days, even a week. A positive sign is that the neck reacts when you loosen the rod, so it might just fix itself, at least to a certain degree.

Then evaluate if you can get away with a partial fret job; leveling the mid section frets only - the 1/16" (1,5mm) is too much to shave away on any frets, but if you get close to 1/64" (0,4 mm), that's often doable.

If not, straightening the neck with pressing and heat is the next thing to try. Actually, one can do it with just a level table surface, clamps and something for cushioning, plus a regular indoor fan heater. Fretboard towards the table, different height cushions so the neck will overbend a little, clamp down.
The caveats: Protect the neck so you won't dent it. Don't overheat; only use the heater when you are there, and keep it at about 2' (50 cm) distance.
Pressure/heating is a nice method, although IMHE(xperience) it doesn't work every time (esp. on propeller necks; the wood will warp again with humidity changes).

And if all else fails, then the total fret job including the fretboard leveling. If it comes down to this: heat the frets briefly (soldering iron) to break possible glue joints and scrape the fret edge/fretboard joint with an X-acto knife. Clean the slots properly. Use right size tang fretwire.


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:08 am
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KidBlast wrote:
These rescue projects are always a bit of an intrigue..


I agree. I figured this Eleca would be a fun, if not challenging little project. If nothing else, she's still worth the $40 I payed for the Squier in parts alone...even if I can't get the neck straight, I can pull the parts and use her as a wall hanger or something. Hell...maybe even have the band sign it and give it to one of the bars we've played at, LOL!!!

I love noodling with my guitars anyways, so a good rescue project like this is always interesting.

jmattis wrote:
First keep it stringed, tuned to pitch, truss rod loose - might take a few days, even a week. A positive sign is that the neck reacts when you loosen the rod, so it might just fix itself, at least to a certain degree.

Then evaluate if you can get away with a partial fret job; leveling the mid section frets only - the 1/16" (1,5mm) is too much to shave away on any frets, but if you get close to 1/64" (0,4 mm), that's often doable.

If not, straightening the neck with pressing and heat is the next thing to try. Actually, one can do it with just a level table surface, clamps and something for cushioning, plus a regular indoor fan heater. Fretboard towards the table, different height cushions so the neck will overbend a little, clamp down.
The caveats: Protect the neck so you won't dent it. Don't overheat; only use the heater when you are there, and keep it at about 2' (50 cm) distance.
Pressure/heating is a nice method, although IMHE(xperience) it doesn't work every time (esp. on propeller necks; the wood will warp again with humidity changes).

And if all else fails, then the total fret job including the fretboard leveling. If it comes down to this: heat the frets briefly (soldering iron) to break possible glue joints and scrape the fret edge/fretboard joint with an X-acto knife. Clean the slots properly. Use right size tang fretwire.


I took another look at it again last night after letting it sit over night with the truss rod fairly loose, and ya...it already seems a little better. The neck responds pretty well to the truss rod, so I'm hoping that as you say, it may just straighten itself out if I give it enough time. At this point I'm starting to suspect that with the truss rod being so tight, it just sort of squashed the neck a bit unevenly. After looking at it last night, I backed the truss rod -way- off and I'm gonna let it sit for a few days...keep your fingers crossed.

I am planning to redress the frets on this one regardless of how all this goes (assuming I can get everything straight of course), if for no other reason, she's got some pretty nasty fret sprout going on the thumb side. I'm not usually too picky about this...living here in Ohio, many of my guitars get a degree of this with the change in seasons, so it don't usually bother me too much...but yea...a couple of those suckers are catching on my thumb. Low end guitar...she's probably never had a proper dressing.

I get what you're saying on clamping to a table...that would probably be a lot easier with this guitar than trying to devise a jig. I was planning to do some kind of cushioning there if I have to go that route, so I could leave some room to put a little extra "umph" on the the clamp(s) at the problem area (I know...not too much) and of course to protect the neck and fretboard. If I have to go that route, I may even take it up to the Fab Lab at the college...they have a nice heavy duty work table that would probably be ideal for this sort of job. The girl that runs the Fab Lab doesn't some incredible wood working (you should see the 20 foot long dragon she did...REALLY cool!), so she may even have an idea or two. If nothing else, I'm having mental visions of my wife coming home from work and finding a guitar clamped to the dining room table...it ain't a pretty picture (LOL).

Should it come down to it, I have done a fret replacement before (my old Kay P-bass)...it's been a while, but I pretty much remember the deal there. In fact, after my father had passed away, while going thru his stuff I ran into an interesting tool I'm gonna give a try there...it's a soldering iron, but it has a flat surface at the end, almost shaped like a really small cloths iron. No clue what Dad used it for...he was into all sorts of artsy-fartsy crafts stuff, but I hung on to it thinking just that...might be a good tool for loosening that glue up on frets.



On that note...just planning for the worse, just in case here...I get what you're saying on using the fan heater with the clamps and I hadn't considered that specifically. I happen to have a hot steam humidifier...my original thought was to use it to steam the neck a bit just before I clamp the neck and maybe once or twice while she's clamped, then let the neck dry back out for a couple of weeks (still clamped of course). I know a few people I've talked to about my grandmother's old Kay had suggested steam...I suspect mainly because that neck is sooooooo warped (strings are well over an inch above the 12th fret). As a matter of curiosity here, what would be the pros and cons of "dry heat" vs. steam? Thoughts?


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:37 am
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I left steaming completely off the previous post, on purpose.
The heat treatment alone will do what can be done, and home steaming usually gets the hot moisture to places you don't want it, not to where it's needed.
This applies especially to an acoustic or an archtop, and with the finish already on...

There's jobs that can't be done without steaming (like a glued neck reset) but this ain't one of them.

All this, of course, just IMHO.


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:38 am
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jmattis wrote:
home steaming usually gets the hot moisture to places you don't want it, not to where it's needed.



That was my concern with steaming...not so much the finish per say as much as this being a set neck, but point well taken.

______

BTW....Speaking of Dan Erlewine and guitar necks, I just did some snooping around on the internet and ran across this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtKzL3n0fgc

More or less seems to be a variation on what we've been talkin' about here. Not really sure this would address my problem specifically as we're not really talking about an even bow, but it does give me an idea or two. I do find him "massaging the neck" a bit interesting there...


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:39 am
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On heating the neck (again should it come to this).....

I just ran across a thread in another forum where someone used a heating pad to heat a neck while clamped (to be straightened)...another option I hadn't thought of. Of course I'd want to be careful so I don't melt the finish off or anything of that nature, but this seems like it could be a really good idea so I could apply some extra heat "right where I need it".

Thoughts?


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:22 am
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That small heating iron of your passed away father might be one of those irons that they use to shrink monocote coverings on model airplane wings? I think I used to have one myself.


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:54 am
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Years ago I posted one of my fixes for this in the Squier section as "shredd6". You might be able to search it.

It was winter so I used some weights and stuck it in from of my fireplace for a couple hours a night. Then put heavy strings on it to keep it forward for a while.

Summertime in Vegas, I could have just stuck it outside for a couple weeks. But I can say, it will take a while. Its not a quick fix.

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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:01 am
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lomitus wrote:
someone used a heating pad to heat a neck while clamped (to be straightened)
Thoughts?

A heating pad is the kind of mini electric blanket Granny used to warm her knees with, right?
Those have thermostats, so I'd say the heating effect isn't warm enough. In other words, if a neck straightens with a heating pad, it probably would straighten without it as well - and the same applies to any means of heating to only relatively low temperatures.

To have any real effect, the temperature should be as high as possible, without damage to the finish, plastic parts etc. (Knobs, tuner pegs & such are easy to protect, but I sure hope you don't have bindings on the neck...)


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:20 am
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If your seeing improvements by loosening the truss rod, its important to tune to pitch each morning while waiting. It may help speed the process and provide feedback in the pitch variation. When the neck quits moving (stays in tune) you should be able to determine if additional truss adjustments are necessary or its time to move on to the fret level/dress stage or jig/clamps.
A week or two of this isn't a bad idea.


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Post subject: Re: Warped neck on a semi-hollow
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:35 pm
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For the neck I straightened, heat wasn't enough. I had to use heat and weight. Although it was winter, I would have done the same in the summer time.

I took the tuners off and laid it flat. If I remember correctly I put something like 50-60lbs in the center of the neck and placed it in front of the fireplace for a couple hours a night. Once I got it fairly straight, I strung it up with heavy gauge strings and let it pull naturally to a bow. It took a couple weeks of just sitting like that. Overall, I think it took me about a month.

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