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Post subject: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:17 am
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Alrighty, after having recently acquired an Ibanez Artcore and being really impressed with it, yesterday I snagged an Eleca semi-hollow in a trade. I knew this thing had a few issues...mainly the neck which I'll post about in separate thread...however I got it in trade for a low end Squier "Strat" that I only payed $40 for (the Walmart version, not even an Affinity or a Bullet or anything). I figure even if I can't fix the neck, the parts on this Eleca are well worth the $40 and I never really played that particular Strat anyways (had picked it up for an art project that I never got around to).

So to cut to the chase here, the lowest control pot on the body (tone for the neck pickup I think) is a bit loose. Just need to snug down the control nut, BUT I can't really reach the bottom of the thing with my fingers thru the F holes so that I can hold the pot while I'm tightening the nut. In fact, short of pulling one of the pickups (which still doesn't really give you any room to work), I'm not sure how you're really supposed to get at anything on the inside of these bodies!?! It seems like having to replace the control pots or the switch or work on the wiring or anything like that would be a SERIOUS pita here.

While I'm certainly no newbie to working on my guitars, this is the first time I've ever owned semi-hollows and while I'm really lovin' that Ibanez, seriously...how the devil do you work on these silly things? Am I missing something?


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:38 am
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I have wondered about that myself. Maybe there are special tools you can insert through the f-hole? Brain surgeon style?


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:46 am
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This does not appear to be a generic semi-hollow problem. The Fender semi-hollows I have played all have control plates.

There are angled wrenches, pliers and mirrors that can be used. I recommend taping the edge of the sound hole first, to reduce the risk of scraping.


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:56 am
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Depends. Sometimes you can reach the inside via the pickup holes, if the pups are mounted in holes on the soundboard. Usually, it's a hellish job so maybe use a pro.

But since you don't like the paranoid b.s. here..."don't do it"..."let a pro do it".... attitude, just hammer the damn pot off and glue it with epoxy.
:wink:


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:27 am
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if you can't reach it, you will just need to stabilize the shaft with some needle nose pliers, then tighten the lug.


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:07 am
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jmattis wrote:
Usually, it's a hellish job so maybe use a pro.

But since you don't like the paranoid b.s. here..."don't do it"..."let a pro do it".... attitude...


It seems to me that unless you're willing to try...or you discourage others from trying...that you will never be able to "do". Since you comment(s) seems to imply that unless you're a pro, you're likely to f_ck it up, for the sake of argument let me ask you this...how exactly do you think the pros got to be pros? For that matter, what exactly is it that qualifies a person for the term "professional"...especially when so many of them (music or otherwise) aren't?

Unless someone is lucky enough to apprentice with an actual luthier...who seem to be few and far in between these days...it's not like they offer classes in this stuff at most community colleges. The colleges and universities around here offer classes in everything from accounting to being a phlebotomy technician or a dental hygienist, but when it comes to guitar building or genuine luthier work...nadda. And it's not like I live out in the sticks or anything...I'm about 20 miles West of Cleveland...except for the occasional "how to restring your guitar" clinics at local music shops, I've never really seen any serious programs to teach one how to be "a pro" at guitar repair. It seems to me that the greatest majority of folks today are usually those who simply had the guts to pick up a screw driver, the curiosity to understand HOW things work, the intelligence to ask questions (say on an internet forum), the willingness to take some chances and perhaps most important of all, the confidence to believe in one's self.

Certainly there are some folks who should probably never touch a guitar (like the idiot who over-tightened the truss rod on my Eleca)...obviously some that should probably never be near tools to begin with. That said however, in my time, yes...I put my old Kramer on a Bridgeport and routed a cavity for a second pickup (not to mention re-routed the bridge cavity so I could replace that god forsaken Floyd Rose with a Kahler), I've replaced, leveled and dressed my own frets, I've certainly built my share of partscasters, I've cut a couple of bodies, I've been doing my own setups for decades and I even taught myself how to refinish my own guitars (a lot of reading and research on that one). In fact, I did a Yamaha bass a while back in black lacquer (took me 2 weeks to figure out how to do the "Motion B" logo in white)...I had gotten it for $30 because it had been thru a fire and after the refinish, the guy I bought it from offered $400 for it.

I actually still remember my first "mod". An '83 Memphis Les Paul clone which was my first "real" electric...which I still have. It had those horrible cheap chrome covered tuners on it and after about a year or so, those suckers really wouldn't tune the guitar any more (let alone keep it in tune). I happened into a set of used Gibson tuners at my first guitar show but when I sat down to try and install them (I figured it was just a couple of screws and nuts, right?), I realized the holes in the headstock were too small. Sure I could have taken it to "a pro"...and likely have been charged MORE than I payed for the guitar new...OR I could just do it myself. So here I was, this 18 year old miscreant, sitting in my mother's kitchen with my guitar in one hand and a hand held power drill in the other...shaking like a freakin' leaf at the thought of putting the drill to the guitar, LOL!!!!!!! And ya know what? Those tuners are still on that guitar to this day! Despite my own fear, I did it...and did a pretty good job...although I will say that now a days, I'd use a drill press instead :-).

No one specifically has taught me how to do any of this stuff...most of it I worked out on my own. I read, I ask questions and much of the time I'll just get a cheap junk guitar and go at it by trial and error until I work it out as I did with refinishing....that one Tele of mine musta got stripped and refinished at least a dozen times before I worked it out (shame it's such a cheap piece of crap...it ended up with a really lovely tobacco sunburst, LOL!!!). Yes, I make mistakes...sometimes little ones, sometimes BIG ones and sometimes A LOT of them....but that's part of the learning process. Again, those who are afraid to try will never do.


In other words, we learn by doing.


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:21 am
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arth1 wrote:
This does not appear to be a generic semi-hollow problem. The Fender semi-hollows I have played all have control plates.

There are angled wrenches, pliers and mirrors that can be used. I recommend taping the edge of the sound hole first, to reduce the risk of scraping.



Yea...I was kind of thinking about that (the angled pliers and such). Thinkin' this may warrant a trip to Harbor Freight Tools. I'm guessing that if I have to do any wiring work on this thing (don't really know yet), then I'll probably just have to pull everything out of it and do it on the table as there's just -no way- I could get a soldering iron in there.

As you say with Fenders, I was surprised that there wasn't some kind of control or access plate on these suckers. Until recently I've never payed too much attention to semi-hollows...other than in passing (i.e "oh...that's pretty", LOL!)...so it's not something I ever noticed. Even with the Ibanez, everything works A-1 on that guitar, so I didn't really give it any thought until I sat down last night with this Eleca.

Taping the f holes is a good idea...I probably would have done that anyways as the guitar does have binding on the f holes. I'm not really a big fan of binding in general (from an aesthetic point of view at least), however I wouldn't want to tear it up either....good tip though...thanks!


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:27 am
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lomitus wrote:
In other words, we learn by doing.

I learn by asking, reading, practicing in a lab environment, taking classes, taking courses, and watching others. My last resort is to stumble through something making mistakes all over the place and learning from them.

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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:52 am
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I on the other hand,, usually head straight for this


My last resort is to stumble through something making mistakes all over the place and learning from them.


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:55 am
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I'd bet ZZDoc would have something in his tool bag Iomitus, being our resident cavity specialist, was thinking some medical forceps or clamp would do the trick, thing is if you can't see what you're clamping down on it could create further problems, bent lugs or clamping on a wire.
Kidblast solution is the safest route I'd say, just pop the knob off and hold the shaft to tighten the pot in place.


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:30 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
lomitus wrote:
In other words, we learn by doing.

I learn by asking, reading, practicing in a lab environment, taking classes, taking courses, and watching others. My last resort is to stumble through something making mistakes all over the place and learning from them.



Ahh...and what do you do when you don't have the safety of a "lab environment" to practice in? What do you do if there simply aren't any courses or classes?? Even if you are lucky enough to have such resources available, doesn't "the student" at some point still have to just "do it"? If you're practicing in a lab, are you not "doing"? What's more is that even given such resources to work with, people STILL make mistakes...again that's part of the learning process. Why are mistakes such a bad thing? Why would you fear such a thing? Everyone makes mistakes...it's part of being human. What's more is why does the lack of such formal resources have to constitute "stumbling through" and "making mistakes all over the place"....why does that have to be all or nothing?

Sometimes if you want to learn something, ya just gotta dive in and do it, even if you don't have the safety net of a formal education. You can "read about" swimming all day long and you can even have others tell you or show you how to do it, but sooner or later you're gonna have to "get your feet wet". Sure...some folks just start with the toes. Others just dive right in...and yea, sometimes they drown. Either way, in order to learn how to swim, sooner or later you HAVE to get in the water...again, we learn by DOING.

Since we're on a Fender Forum here, this seems pretty relevant...obviously I wasn't there at the time, but it seems to me that back in the 1940's when Leo Fender came up with that first Esquire...I'm guessing he never went to school for guitar building. Maybe I'm wrong, but somehow I doubt he even took a "weekend workshop" for instrument building. If I remember correctly, Leo actually went to school for accounting...he taught himself radio repair. In short, he used his smarts and "figured it out".

Seriously...if we simply accept this type of mentality regarding education and what constitutes "a pro", then it seems like there shouldn't even be "Fender"...after all, Leo should have kept to his book keeping and faded into the annals of history unremarked. The reason we're able to debate this is because a great man, despite his lack of formal training in the subject, looked at the problem and said "I can do that...".

I'm glad that you have the Fender or Gibson or Martin School of Guitar Building & Repair available at your disposal...it must be a glorious thing to have a professional instructor supervise you as you learn how to straighten a guitar neck. A great many of us however just aren't that lucky. I can't speak to the rest of the planet, but here in the Cleveland area, I don't know of any college that really offers any courses, let alone a degree in guitar repair or the building of musical instruments...and even if they did, I probably couldn't afford them anyways. Just because a person can't get that formal education however doesn't specifically imply that a person should just give up...and just because a person chooses to teach themselves doesn't mean they're automatically gonna stumble through.

What's more is that a lot of this stuff just isn't as difficult as some folks try to make it out to be...it shouldn't take a mechanical genius to look at a nut and a screw and see how they work together (wow...righty-tighty, lefty-loosey, LOL!). Yea...if a person were cutting their own fretboard from scratch, while it's not really rocket science, there's some fairly complicated mathematics there (scale length, fret distance, etc). On the other hand, doing a setup or even a neck swap (as referenced in a previous thread) on an electric guitar really isn't THAT complicated...and in this "information age", there's a great deal of knowledge that's literally just a mouse click away. If you REALLY need someone to "show" you how to do it...dude...the video is on Youtube! LOL!

I'm sorry but I just can't understand why the lack of a formal education in all of this...again in a field that many schools just don't teach...why does this necessitate the concept of "stumbling through"? Why does this have to specifically be an "all or nothing" mentality?


Why should people be discouraged from trying something simply based on a lack of formal training?


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:08 pm
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Whenever I work on a Hollowbody, I start by tying dental floss to the pot posts. That way you can fish them back and forth in and out of the body. Each one will be about a foot long.

When it comes time to fish the pot back into position, it's usually enough to pull up on the floss and tighten the nut. Maybe you can try that.

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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:24 pm
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shred6 wrote:
Whenever I work on a Hollowbody, I start by tying dental floss to the pot posts. That way you can fish them back and forth in and out of the body. Each one will be about a foot long.

That's some seriously long pot posts, man! :P


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:12 am
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lomitus wrote:
Since you comment(s) seems to imply that unless you're a pro, you're likely to f_ck it up

That's absolutely wrong.
I give (or to be more precise, try to give) instructions, but at the same time inform of the caveats that are involved. IMHO, that's a better way to give advice on the net than your go-for-it-gung-ho attitude.
On the "Swap necks" topic, where I (&others) got that b.s. quote from you, I recommended the OP to evaluate his/her own skill level - and the "might be wise to let a pro do it" included the part that both guitars would get a proper setup with the neck swap, plus that the OP might have a chance to follow the procedure. But, that's b.s. to you...
BTW, you say you got 30 years of experience - you never seen a Strat with neck pocket cracked in neck removal, or had a neck joint badly stuck, glued by the finish?

lomitus wrote:
For that matter, what exactly is it that qualifies a person for the term "professional"...especially when so many of them (music or otherwise) aren't? [etc.]

Yep, regularly on the forum we get those "a pro set up my guitar, it's still wrong" posts - so often I recall posting that when I write "pro" it should be read "a pro that knows what to do"...

Just a couple of remarks here: In the good old days the basic hand skills were generally speaking better. On instruments, you had the village helping if needed. And then came those apprenticeships/community colleges etc. to help, somewhat - but the education is just the start.

These days, a really big problem is the combination of a
- beginner with all thumbs;
- a (cheap, trem equipped) webshop guitar that isn't set up,
- apparently no experienced friends,
- plus an internet connection.
Often this results in asking wrong questions, giving insufficient info, trying to fix one error at a time based on web's (right and wrong) answers, and eventually messing the whole guitar up.
Oh yeah, in these situations I do recommend a pro, at the earliest possible stage of those topics.

But back on topic: Just about all major work that needs to be done inside a (semi)hollowbody is easiest if you take the whole assembly off via the pup holes. Trying to work in the inside means you gotta have the tools customized etc. Ever tried soldering something, looking at a 1" mirror?
(I used to have an old canoe type Saab, where the easy method to change headlight bulbs is to first take off the grill, bumper, radiator and engine.)


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Post subject: Re: Semi-hollows...how the devil do you work on them?
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:11 am
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Think Building a Ship in a Bottle...

There are many tools out there which can help.

Look up: Large Forceps

It's all doable, but patience and practice will get you there.

As mentioned, mask off the Sound Holes, F-Holes and Pickup Holes b4 starting.

Take your time.

Or...

Pay someone else to do it (that's a real solution for many people).

cheers!

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