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Post subject: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:07 am
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Man, I'm glad it's finally over!!

First the Hell part:
when I got my Ampeg, the OEM speaker was blown. I got advice from a friend who swears by the Eminence "Red White And Blues". I tried it, did nothing for me in that amp. A Celestion V-30 blew it away in that amp. But I had to take it out of one of my other amps.

So what to do with the Eminence?

I tried mixing it with a V-30 in my Carvin cab for the Hughes And Kettner.. Not happenin'. It took the sizzle out of it just like it did to the Ampeg. It's a 120W speaker that's cleaner and more on the Bass side and it overpowered the V-30.

That left me with 2-choices. The Heidkamp or Roland JC. I opted for the Roland. Fine. I only use it for clean channel, and there's plenty of headroom. Even though I like a V-30 better in that amp as well.

I've been fidgeting with my Heidkamp for a month trying to get the sound I want out of it. Something weird going on. It has a 100W Jensen Blackbird and V-30 in it. And it occurred to me that the same thing could be going on. A V-30 being overpowered by another speaker really isn't a good sound to me.

So once again, I start swapping. Since the Jensen and Eminence are more closely matched in wattage, I'll try them together, and put THAT V-30 in the Roland.

The Heaven:
PERFECT!! I had no idea it was that much of an issue. The Heidkamp sounds 10x's better. Even better than when I tried 2-V-30s in it. Mixed with the right speaker, a RWB really does sound good.

But man, what a pain in the you know what!! it wouldn't bother me if I never went through that again. Not really becoming a big fan of mixing speakers.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:41 am
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If swapping speakers were only as easy as swapping tubes...... :sigh:

It can be difficult/expensive to find the right speaker(s) for any given amp, but when you do.... :D

I use a pair of Red, White & Blues with a pair of Texas heats, in a 4x12 and they sound fantastic together. I also added a switch so I can have 2x12 RWB or 2x12 TH, or all four.

Funny thing is that until recently, I didn't care that much about speakers, and I always tried to tailor the amp (tubes, caps, etc) to whatever speaker it had, but now I have yet another addiction (6 cabs and counting, and just ordered 2 more pairs of speakers for another cab). :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:10 am
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I guess even that wouldn't be as bad. But swapping between combos and cabs became daunting. You have to take the chassis out of the Ampeg to get the speaker out and it's a tight fit. Didn't want to damage the vynil.

I am finding out how much I really do like V-30s. They're great with a lot of different amps. But putting them with the higher wattage speakers wasn't my thing. And something about the Heidkamp really didn't agree with them. It was decent, but nothing like the Jensen/ RWB combo. The cleans and overdrive became instantly incredible. Blew me away in all facets.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:11 am
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The V30 is a killer speaker for many amps. I have a 2x12 with V30s and it sounds great with a Bassman, and a MB TA15, among other amps.

The V30 has a sensitivity rating of 100 db, the RWB is 101 db,that would have to factor into mating either with another compatible speaker, not so much about matching watts. Watts has nothing to do with how loud a speaker sounds. What is the sensitivity rating on your other speakers?

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:03 am
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I believe the Blackbird is rated @ 98 db if I'm reading this right.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/jensen-jet-blackbird-12-100-watt-guitar-speaker

But that's not from the Jensen website.

So can you explain the Sensitivity Rating a little more? What does that mean to the equation of mixing speakers?

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:33 pm
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A speaker with a higher sensitivity rating will sound louder in any given amp, regardless of speaker wattage rating. For example, a 50 watt speaker with a rating of 102 db, will sound much louder than a 100 watt speaker rated 99 db, when using the same amp with either speaker.

The speaker wattage rating only determines the amount of power that the speaker can handle, and has nothing to do with volume. So, for a 100 watt amp, you would want a minimum of a 100 watts total speaker load (one 100 watt speaker, two 50 watt speakers, etc), and usually it's best to use even higher wattage speaker(s) than the watt rating of the amp, because the wattage rating of the amp is usually clean watts, and many amps will exceed their wattage rating when pushed to distortion.

Generally speaking, when using multiple speakers of the same impedance rating (ohms), the output wattage of the amp will be equally distributed across each speaker. Using two 8 ohm speakers with a 100 watt amp, each speaker will get 50 watts. Use four 8 ohm speakers with a 100 watt amp, each speaker gets 25 watts.

Take the two speaker example above, using two speakers at the same time with a 100 watt amp. If both speakers are 8 ohm, one of the speakers rated 50 watts and 102 db, and one of the speakers rated 100 watts and 99 db, each speaker will receive equal power from the amp (50 watts per speaker), but the one with the higher db rating will sound louder that the one with the lower db rating.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:10 pm
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Ok, so going by that, although I may have been correct about the RWB being louder, it doesn't appear to be by much. I'd swear it was more overpowering than 1db.

So that brings me to my next question.

How much does EQ frequency and breakup add to the perception?

The RWB has a later breakup and is voiced more to the lower mid side. The V-30 breaks up sooner and is voiced more in the mid or upper mid side.

There's a particular chord that I play when I'm checking the sound of an amp in overdrive. If I hear all of the notes within that chord, I know it's where I want the sound to be.

With the RWB, a couple of the notes would get lost. The nature of its voicing didn't allow them surface. That's why I pulled it out of the ampeg and the H&K. With the V30, you can hear them all. Put the two speakers together, and those particular notes were being held back and the V30 sounded thinner.

I didn't mind the two in the clean channel. But once I started to overdrive, I lost interest in pairing those two.

So would it be fair to say that the voicings of that pair were the cause of my displeasure more so than the db rating?

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:49 pm
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The way we perceive loudness, that 1db difference in the efficiency rating of the two speakers is actually quite a bit.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:18 pm
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I'm still not sure I'm a fan of mixing speakers. With both of my 2x12 setups, I found myself fighting the EQ.

The Jensen website doesn't have info on that rating for the Jet Blackbird and I'm not sure I agree with the MF spec of 98db. But if you read the description, it actually is very similar to a RWB description. They do sound similar, and it gives me more control with the Heidkamp. And the low end thump kicks you in the balls without getting muddy.

It's really cool to make a swap like that and have it really work for the better. The RWB/Blackbird combo turned this amp from good to un-freaking-believable.

But I still feel like it's more of an accidental success.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:28 pm
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The speaker voicing would be a factor, since taste is subjective, but considering that increasing the sound level by 3 db is perceived as twice as loud (I think?), an increase of 1 db would be considerable.

Also, check out the frequency response graphs shown for various speakers, as well as the descriptions and db ratings. Often, the graphs and descriptions can show the differences in the sound characteristics. Most of the speakers that I paired together were done so with the aid of those graphs, picking speakers that were complimentary.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:36 pm
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As far as I'm concerned im done. I've gone through a guitar addiction, tube addiction, and pickup addiction. I'm going to rehab before I start a speaker addiction.

Damn guitars are a gateway drug.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker mixing Heaven and Hell
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:32 am
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Yeah, but have you tried..... :lol:

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