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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:20 pm
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desertbluesman wrote:
I am with you on this, I can never tell wood tone differences on my solid body electric guitars. I prefer ash and alder, but I do have one mahogany guitar, a cheapo Ibanez RG321 but I think it is the pickups more than the wood that makes that difference in tone on the RG321. Maybe something hard like maple would make a major difference in resonance in a solid body electric. But for other solid body guitars I can't tell any difference. I have been playing since 1964.


I've been eyeballing this maple bodied beauty for awhile. Except would have him put on gold hardware and a Strat bridge.
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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:47 am
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I think we all agree that any effect wood has on the tone of a solid body electric is going to be small but I think that the cues we can pick up from acoustic guitar woods will have a similar action on electric guitar strings as they have on acoustic guitar strings.

yep!


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:13 am
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IMHO, the body and neck material and construction (including form) play their part in the final sound of an electric guitar. But, that part ain't big.

For everyone who thinks he/she can hear what wood species a Strat is made of, I suggest a double blind test. Results may be surprising.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:53 am
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arth1 wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
paris wrote:
In the end, I believe that the player makes the biggest different.
I don't think anybody is in disagreement with this. However, for a given player, that is not a variable. It is a constant. I am always going to play like me and you are always going to play like you.

I respectfully disagree. How I sound depends on how well I "bond" with a guitar. That could be because of the shape, weight, wood, finish or any of a dozen of other things. Whether those things affect the tone itself enough to make an audible difference or not isn't the main point - it's how it affects me, as a player.
I'm not a cold hard machine, who sounds the same no matter what instrument you put in my hands. I'm imperfect, biased, and flawed that way. The tones that come out of the pickup are the result of my feelings as much as anything else.


Well said! I agree that how I connect with a guitar, or even how I'm feeling that day, will effect the way I sound.

The moment I started using the various pup and tone settings with my new Stratocaster Dlx Plus, how I phrased leads changed.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:57 am
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Now we're talking about hands and pickups again. The debate is wood.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:23 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Now we're talking about hands and pickups again. The debate is wood.


I guess it's a human nature thing: Anytime there is a lengthy thread concerning virtually any topic, it inevitably strays from the prime subject (just like I'm doing now). Notwithstanding, I must compliment and congratulate all the participants herein for keeping it a civil, truly thoughtful and interesting discussion.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:28 pm
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paris wrote:
As to necks, I have heard a discernable tonal difference between maple and rosewood necks. I think that it has to do with how the strings react to the interactions between the fretboard wood and a player's fingers.


I have an American Deluxe with a maple neck. Prior to that I had the same model and year with a rosewood neck. While other characteristics come into play, all things being equal (which doesn't happen with guitars much), I could tell a distinct difference in sound between the Strats. I'm willing to bet Brazilian rosewood and Indian rosewood necks would differ, perhaps slightly, in sound. There is a different density, grain, and porous feature between the two.

Some experts feel that one pickup, rather than two or more, can be the difference in how sound waves travel about the guitar, and that seems plausible. In other words, one pickup has the advantage of receiving sound from all angles, while added pickups could restrict these waves. Maybe that's where the neck material comes into play. If the body of the guitar (electric or otherwise) reflects the sound waves differently then it may make sense that the amount, arrangement, and type of PUs/control would have some bearing. This, of course, does not mean that multiple pickups won't sound better . . . it just means that there is no assurance.

Regardless, good or bad sound could be attributed or maybe not contributed to the type of wood used for solid bodied axes.

Acoustics need not apply.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:40 pm
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:

Some experts feel that one pickup, rather than two or more, can be the difference in how sound waves travel about the guitar, and that seems plausible. In other words, one pickup has the advantage of receiving sound from all angles, while added pickups could restrict these waves. Maybe that's where the neck material comes into play. If the body of the guitar (electric or otherwise) reflects the sound waves differently then it may make sense that the amount, arrangement, and type of PUs/control would have some bearing. This, of course, does not mean that multiple pickups won't sound better . . . it just means that there is no assurance.
Acoustics need not apply.

This makes no sense to me. Whether one pickup or two is used has no bearing on whether wood affects string vibration as the issue of one or two would be in play regardless of wood selection.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:55 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Fender Strat Brat wrote:

Some experts feel that one pickup, rather than two or more, can be the difference in how sound waves travel about the guitar, and that seems plausible. In other words, one pickup has the advantage of receiving sound from all angles, while added pickups could restrict these waves. Maybe that's where the neck material comes into play. If the body of the guitar (electric or otherwise) reflects the sound waves differently then it may make sense that the amount, arrangement, and type of PUs/control would have some bearing. This, of course, does not mean that multiple pickups won't sound better . . . it just means that there is no assurance.
Acoustics need not apply.

This makes no sense to me. Whether one pickup or two is used has no bearing on whether wood affects string vibration as the issue of one or two would be in play regardless of wood selection.


The magnetic flux field of a single or multiple pickup arrangement on an instrument will affect how the strings are "heard" by it/them. Here too though, this is yet another one of those usually imperceptible differences.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:51 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Fender Strat Brat wrote:

Some experts feel that one pickup, rather than two or more, can be the difference in how sound waves travel about the guitar, and that seems plausible. In other words, one pickup has the advantage of receiving sound from all angles, while added pickups could restrict these waves. Maybe that's where the neck material comes into play. If the body of the guitar (electric or otherwise) reflects the sound waves differently then it may make sense that the amount, arrangement, and type of PUs/control would have some bearing. This, of course, does not mean that multiple pickups won't sound better . . . it just means that there is no assurance.
Acoustics need not apply.

This makes no sense to me. Whether one pickup or two is used has no bearing on whether wood affects string vibration as the issue of one or two would be in play regardless of wood selection.


The concept is that sound waves can travel in a direct line to the first pickup (say from the nut to the neck pickup for example) while the next pickup (say a middle one) would, while still receiving waves from the neck, might not benefit from a clear pathway such as the neck pickup does). Imagine rocks all the same height and shape in line just below the surface of a rippling pond. The water would pass over and around them, but not equally.

Sound wave response above and below can be compensated with pickup height , string height, and electronics. Sound waves along the guitar are in a different camp. Even body shapes can affect this. So why not pickup placement? I won't even get into magnetism, harmonics, wiring , and questionable theory.

Given this. If the sound from the neck could saturate the neck pickup, but only the top of the middle and bridge pickup, perhaps, the wood choice for reflection purposes could come into play. if we are to believe wood is that important.

I'm not proposing that the difference is of much concern, and in no way is it meant to convey that one pickup is better or worse; but, others have said that is the gist of it. Who knows, it may be more of a marketing ploy? For me and others, maybe multiple pickups, desired sound, and the looks of a beautiful lesser acoustical wood or other material will suffice :roll:

PS Well said Martian. That's my understanding too. Perception is the keyword :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:46 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
ripitup555 wrote:
Here's a test for anyone with quality recording equipment, strum the open strings, next, lay the guitar on any wooden surface, table, chair etc..,strum again, record and post the results, doesn't even have to be wooden for that matter, but unplugged there is a big difference in tone and volume when you lay the guitar on a wooden bench.
I've tried this test by ear with a small amp in another room with someone else playing, and to my ears there was no difference, sure it could be my ears.
So if anyone is willing to carry out the experiment I'm sure everyone would be interested in the results
Let's not confuse the issue here. We aren't talking about acoustics. What you're hearing there is the bench wood, not the guitar strings. That test has been used on both sides of the argument and it is pretty much meaningless since you're simply inducing vibration into the bench and hearing it vibrate. If anything you're taking tone OUT of the strings by sucking more energy out of them. It takes energy to make the bench vibrate. The source of that energy is the vibrating strings. Thus you are using up vibrational energy from the strings. This is an electric guitar we're talking about. We don't hear the wood acoustically. The pickups don't hear the wood either. The pickups hear the strings. The wood acts as a damper on the strings. It does not add, it subtracts. How much it damps and how much that damping varies from wood to wood is the question at issue.

Yeah sorry BM didn't intend to confuse the matter. I did think it was a valid point though, if hearing the difference acoustically does it also transfer amplified was the point, with the amp being recorded as far away from the instrument as possible, if different wood ( more in this case ), different vibration qualities (more or less, depending on the tonal aspects of your table) are added does it sound different recorded, also taking the player out of the equation.
I've picked up some custom shop guitars and put them down just as quick, I'm not a tone wood freak I don't think, could be that it was love at first strum with my strat, just interested in the topic


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:27 pm
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There are a few things here where we are going backwards in this investigation. For example:
- sound coming from the neck
- sound reflections in the wood between pickups.
- etc.

Sound, schmound. I thought we all understood pickups and strings working together are an electromagnetic system rather than an acoustical system. It's not about sound. Not until the signal gets to the amp. The neck isn't going to generate sound or, more importantly, vibrations on it's own. The body isn't either. They vibrate because they take energy from the strings. The strings don't vibrate because they take energy from the wood. The wood has no energy to give. That is, not unless you start beating on the wood with your fists or something. Wood, standing at rest, does not impart vibrational energy to the strings. I see no logical reason to accept that by simply using energy from the strings that it somehow amplifies that energy and sends it back to the strings. The wood absorbs vibrational energy from the strings and dissipates it. This is key and it needs to be taken into account in every comment about sound or vibration. If you take one thing with you from this discussion, take that. If you wish to debate this, well that is a different matter but for the purposes of the tone wood debate, if we can all agree that the wood doesn't play the strings, the guitarist does then let us please keep that in mind. I will be more than happy to entertain any and all discussions about how the wood interacts with the vibrations of the strings but unless there is some compelling reason to assume wood makes sounds that the pickups can not only detect that sound but also send it to the amplifier then I am going to ask you folks to please think about your arguments again, revisit your assumptions and get back to me. So far these last few posts have been irrelevant in my view. Prove me wrong if you like. I will listen.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:58 pm
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Hi people, I thought I would chime in with my two cents.

Here is what everyone overlooks in this discussion - you do not need a magnetic material to affect an electromagnetic wave. If you affect the electric field, you similarly affect the magnetic field. So, if different woods have different dielectric constants, they will affect the electromagnetic fields differently in terms of reflection and refraction.

Whether that actually makes a difference in tone, I have no idea, especially given the extremely long wavelengths at acoustic frequencies. I certainly agree that the electronics come first and foremost.

Frankly, I have never listened to someone playing an electric guitar and thought "Ah, that sounds like ash!" :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:15 am
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spacewolf wrote:
"Ah, that sounds like ash!" :wink:


Only a dumb ash wood say that. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:40 am
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
spacewolf wrote:
"Ah, that sounds like ash!" :wink:


Only a dumb ash wood say that. :lol:


"He said, "ash", heh, heh, heh!"

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