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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:01 pm
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I'm agreeable with most of what peoples opinions are about differences in wood for guitars mostly because arguing about opinions with people who may be unable to detach themselves from whatever is bothering them while conversing with others is impossible. You could be arguing with their boss or wife or broken snow blower or what ever baggage they choose to bring into the conversation . That said,
The only remarkable quality for me is that Fender Stratocasters, acoustically, all have a unique sound from other guitars. Even Squier model Stratocasters have it. A mellow clarity or some thing like that. They all sound similar acoustically in that aspect. When amplified their individual differences stand out but similarly to the acoustic quality if the same pick-ups and electronics are in a Squier model and a Fender standard or even a deluxe or vintage the differences are detectable but not very IMHO YMMV (to quote my favorite Martian :D )

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:49 am
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shred6 wrote:
arth1 wrote:
I have one chambered Tele, and it definitely sounds different plugged in, in a good way, and more so at half volume.


If I were to pick some kind of logical angle for differences in materials, this is where I'd start. Chambers, and their variables.

Wood, by nature, has its internal micro chambers. They vary by species. Some woods are very porous, some are not. These pores are micro caverns, and vibrations travel through them differently. Favorably, or unfavorably, is subjective. What surrounds the micro caverns varies in density. Soft or hard can also be considered as extremely fine caverns in a molecular sense. Even to the point of where you come to the Plexi- body Tiger J posted. No pores, but extreme density.

One way or another, the vibration is going to travel and be picked up by the magnetic unit that contains its own variables. Within a guitar, there are so many minute crazy variables, it goes beyond what anyone REALLY cares to try to pinpoint scientifically.

Our ears and concept of sound has its limitations. The human ears hear in a limiting gauge of Hz. And even in that spectrum, there are variables as to what each person hears more prominently than others and finds favorable.

One way or another, a sound is gonna happen. You either like it or you don't and there are some in betweens.

But the amount of variables between guitar, amp, pedals, cables, picks, strings, finger density, bone structure, whether you clipped your finger nails, battery type (actives), fretboard material, fret material, neck size, angle of neck, wood material, bridge type, magnet type, volume pot "K", tone pot "k", pickup output, resistance "k", tone cap type, bridge type, bridge block type, saddle type, saddle design, no block, chambered, non chambered, etc... Etc!!! Etc!!!

Be my guest. Feel free to figure it out. The variables go far beyond what I'm willing to try to logically and scientifically try to come to any viable conclusions.

I had a dog once that would whimper every now and then when I'd try a new sound. I kinda figured his ears were better than mine. Maybe I'd change it just so he wouldn't be tortured by whatever it was that set him off. That's about all the reasoning I needed.


"By George, I think he's got it!"

Works for me!!!

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:28 am
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Well when you start talking fretboard material, I think you've walked in to completely different snow ball fight.

Ebody, Rosewood, Maple... I think there definitely subtitles to these in how these might effect tone, but the biggest difference is going to be the feel under ones fingers.. is it a tone placebo ? Unless you had two exact models, where the only diff. was perhaps a rosewood vs. maple neck strat or tele... then there's too many variables to do any thing other than grasp at what you think you're hearing.

A lot of what people are going back to in the thread here is primary tone, which of course is the sound of a given guitar (electric solid body) when it's not plugged in to an amp.

at this point the head starts to hurt and when all you wanted to do was play guitar in the first place, I soon get to the point where I believe I'm eventually defeating the entire purpose of playing the damn thing.

Hey,,

I'm just happy they all sound a bit different, at this point in my life, I really don't care why..


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:12 am
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Thanks for everyone's input. It has all been constructive and thoughtful.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:25 am
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So ... It looks like the general consensus is that wood plays no role but finish, chambers and pores do.
(All else being equal, I can only assume)


Can someone please digress just ever so slightly from the mechanics of the issue and walk me through the logic of the argument? I am having difficulty understanding how things like:
- Neck joint (universally agreed upon in many previous threads)
- Finish
- Wood pores
- Chambers
can all play a role but when the subject of wood species comes up, it seems to be singled out for rejection.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:52 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
So ... It looks like the general consensus is that wood plays no role but finish, chambers and pores do.
(All else being equal, I can only assume)


Can someone please digress just ever so slightly from the mechanics of the issue and walk me through the logic of the argument? I am having difficulty understanding how things like:
- Neck joint (universally agreed upon in many previous threads)
- Finish
- Wood pores
- Chambers
can all play a role but when the subject of wood species comes up, it seems to be singled out for rejection.


Pro - The general argument is that, and I'm not on either side of this, wood types have different tonal properties or qualities. And that different wood will cause your ELECTRIC guitar to sound one way or another.

Con - Tone wood makes "0" difference to the tonal sounds of the ELECTRIC guitar. The pickups are not picking up the tonal characteristics of the wood.

I will say that acoustically speaking, various woods do have differing tonal qualities. Think acoustic guitars. Also, having tapped on various Stratocaster bodies, some lighter, some heavier, I have heard a tonal difference. Once plugged in however, I have no idea if there is a difference.

I own, and have owned, alder, ash and mahogany electric guitars, and couldn't tell you one way or the other if there is a difference. Again, I suspect wood density has more to do with sustain than anything else.

In the end, I believe that the player makes the biggest different. Case in point: My best friend owns a 1991/92 Am. Std. Strat with Texas Special pickups. This guitar sounds amazing! It is one of the very best sounding sunburst Strats I've ever heard. New flash! it's made of poplar with a maple or alder cap, top and back. You see, in the early '90s Fender had trouble getting ahold of alder, so they went with poplar. (Wheeler, The Stratocaster Chronicals, pg. 202)

Who knows the truth...the Shadow knows.

I still love my '75 Strat, '00/'01 Clapton Strat, Andy Summers insp. Tele and my new Strat Dlx Plus, and they are all very different in many, many ways.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:43 am
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I think it's mostly this:

The pickups are not picking up the tonal characteristics of the wood.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:03 pm
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Actually, I fall a little more on the side that wood species does matter in creating a difference to varying degrees in terms of vibrations and a residual effect to string vibration.

All wood species have pores. They all have a varying amount of airspace. Wood pores are like microscopic tubes. What surrounds those tubes still has an even more microscopic airspace. So you have microscopic chambers.

Then you can take a guitar body and add larger chambers, or even larger in terms of Semi- Hollow, Hollow Body/ Acoustic.

Either way, they create varying degrees of vibration. And we know it can affect the sound of an electric guitar if you've ever turned up an amplifier in front of an acoustic guitar (basically one large chamber) and had it get an out of control vibration that can effectively vibrate a string forever.

But that's more a product of design than it is due to the species used to create the design. It's not as easy to have that happen with a solid body.

Some will say that pickups are an electric type property that can't be affected by a wooden property. But because of design variables, I tip my scale a little more the other way.

However, I consider the term "tone wood" to be a little ridiculous. A guitar made of anything will make a tone. Whether you like that tone or not is the only thing that really matters in the end.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:17 pm
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paris wrote:
In the end, I believe that the player makes the biggest different.
I don't think anybody is in disagreement with this. However, for a given player, that is not a variable. It is a constant. I am always going to play like me and you are always going to play like you. You and I may sound different on the same guitar but that debate does not bring the guitar into the equation.
KidBlast wrote:
I think it's mostly this:

The pickups are not picking up the tonal characteristics of the wood.
That's all well and good and perfectly correct but it doesn't address the issue. The question is: does the wood affect the tonal characteristics of the strings; thereby changing the sound the pickups pick up?

I have difficulty accepting that things like finish, pores, neck joint and any other parts of the guitar that are not directly part of the electro-magnetic system can have an affect on tone but wood selection does not. If these other things can affect the tone of a guitar then clearly the parts of the guitar other than strings and pickups are involved in the overall tone. It stands to reason then that the wood is also a part of those other systems. I may be wrong but I do not believe anyone on this board has ever come right out and said that wood selection is paramount. In my observations of these discussions it seems almost everyone attributes the pickups and the player as being the largest influences.

All I'm saying here is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't believe the finish makes a difference and not the wood. That is not consistent.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:14 pm
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I have difficulty accepting that things like finish, pores, neck joint and any other parts of the guitar that are not directly part of the electro-magnetic system can have an affect on tone but wood selection does not. If these other things can affect the tone of a guitar then clearly the parts of the guitar other than strings and pickups are involved in the overall tone. It stands to reason then that the wood is also a part of those other systems. I may be wrong but I do not believe anyone on this board has ever come right out and said that wood selection is paramount. In my observations of these discussions it seems almost everyone attributes the pickups and the player as being the largest influences.

sure, point taken and accepted.... but we're adding more variables on top of this than just wood here though aren't we?

While I agree it's the sum of all things that equal the end resulting tone, what really happens if we had the luxury of having two examples to test.. like two identical strats, (same neck material, pickups, hardware, finish)

where the ONLY difference is Alder body verses Ash body, and the SAME set of hands, cable, amp, with out touching any settings...

a "blind taste test" -- here's the sound of strat one, here's the sound of strat two..

Now, blind fold me, play em again.

Could I pick out one from the other? dunno? Actually I'd like that opportunity!


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:49 pm
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Well, let's also not forget that the likelihood of two pieces of Alder having exactly the same grain and density and knot placement and God knows what else is not very high. Generally speaking I think we all agree that any effect wood has on the tone of a solid body electric is going to be small but I think that the cues we can pick up from acoustic guitar woods will have a similar action on electric guitar strings as they have on acoustic guitar strings.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:40 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
paris wrote:
In the end, I believe that the player makes the biggest different.
I don't think anybody is in disagreement with this. However, for a given player, that is not a variable. It is a constant. I am always going to play like me and you are always going to play like you.

I respectfully disagree. How I sound depends on how well I "bond" with a guitar. That could be because of the shape, weight, wood, finish or any of a dozen of other things. Whether those things affect the tone itself enough to make an audible difference or not isn't the main point - it's how it affects me, as a player.
I'm not a cold hard machine, who sounds the same no matter what instrument you put in my hands. I'm imperfect, biased, and flawed that way. The tones that come out of the pickup are the result of my feelings as much as anything else.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:54 pm
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Here's a test for anyone with quality recording equipment, strum the open strings, next, lay the guitar on any wooden surface, table, chair etc..,strum again, record and post the results, doesn't even have to be wooden for that matter, but unplugged there is a big difference in tone and volume when you lay the guitar on a wooden bench.
I've tried this test by ear with a small amp in another room with someone else playing, and to my ears there was no difference, sure it could be my ears.
So if anyone is willing to carry out the experiment I'm sure everyone would be interested in the results


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:17 pm
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I've been playing since 1972 and to be honest when it comes to Electric Guitars, I can not tell the difference in sound as far as the woods are concerned. Electronics are another thing. I can spot a good sounding pickup no problem at all.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Wood Wars!
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:29 pm
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ripitup555 wrote:
Here's a test for anyone with quality recording equipment, strum the open strings, next, lay the guitar on any wooden surface, table, chair etc..,strum again, record and post the results, doesn't even have to be wooden for that matter, but unplugged there is a big difference in tone and volume when you lay the guitar on a wooden bench.
I've tried this test by ear with a small amp in another room with someone else playing, and to my ears there was no difference, sure it could be my ears.
So if anyone is willing to carry out the experiment I'm sure everyone would be interested in the results
Let's not confuse the issue here. We aren't talking about acoustics. What you're hearing there is the bench wood, not the guitar strings. That test has been used on both sides of the argument and it is pretty much meaningless since you're simply inducing vibration into the bench and hearing it vibrate. If anything you're taking tone OUT of the strings by sucking more energy out of them. It takes energy to make the bench vibrate. The source of that energy is the vibrating strings. Thus you are using up vibrational energy from the strings. This is an electric guitar we're talking about. We don't hear the wood acoustically. The pickups don't hear the wood either. The pickups hear the strings. The wood acts as a damper on the strings. It does not add, it subtracts. How much it damps and how much that damping varies from wood to wood is the question at issue.

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