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Post subject: Pedal Question
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:12 pm
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Knowing a little about stereo equipment and hardly anything about guitar amplifiers I was wondering if the valued "tube sound" of a high quality tube amp. is any way diminished by attaching several pedals. Wouldn't you have about the same results as a modeling amp such as a Vox powered by a tube? Audiophiles say any tone modifying circuit diminishes the pure sound of a good stereo amp. Which is why some stereo amps. have the means to completely bypass anything other than the pure source coming into the amp. that will always cause minor, but unwanted distortion.


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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:40 pm
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Hmmm....If you want to go there then why not say acoustic instruments only? The reality is the "distortions" or "signal disturbances" created by pedals are the desired effect. Not all amps or guitars are created equal, thus the need to enhance or alter the sound of the instrument to produce the desired sound. Modeling amps are useful for some and not so much for others; it’s a personal preference/choice. The Audiophile claim that the purest/shortest signal path is always best, discounts room acoustics, and equalization built into speakers in the form of crossover networks. The argument I think you want to make is whether analog or digital signal paths and their resultant sound are more desirable. Then perhaps submit whether or not you feel the inherent distortions created in an analog signal path are more palatable than the distortions created digital signal path. But again that is all subjective to the individual ears that listen to it.

Good analog pedals integrated into the signal path with a good tube amp sound more “musical” to my ears. I have both a tube and a modeling amp; admittedly the tube amp is a better version of tube amp than my modeling amp is in its topology. I also use both tube and solid state amps in my entertainment system at home.

To surmise if you put pedals in the signal path you are somehow smashing both topologies together and getting the same result as a modeling is not really a good comparison or assessment.

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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:52 am
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Very good answer to my question, thanks! I was just wondering if by adding a number of pedals which might be of questionable quality, might result in a negative effect in tone quality and unwanted noise. It would seem that the "best" sound the amp. was capable of would come from the shortest path from guitar to amp. (even shorter cables), but as you said, that negates the desired effect you want from the pedal. I guess another way to ask my question is, "is a high quality tube amp. necessary if your playing style includes a lot of sound modification from transistor pedals"?


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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:43 am
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tvr1979 wrote:
Very good answer to my question, thanks! I was just wondering if by adding a number of pedals which might be of questionable quality, might result in a negative effect in tone quality and unwanted noise. It would seem that the "best" sound the amp. was capable of would come from the shortest path from guitar to amp. (even shorter cables), but as you said, that negates the desired effect you want from the pedal. I guess another way to ask my question is, "is a high quality tube amp. necessary if your playing style includes a lot of sound modification from transistor pedals"?


There's lots of opinions to your question, but the only one right answer has to come from you. Most players prefer the sound of natural breakup from tubes over pedals or modeling amps. The one aspect tubes have in their favor is that natural breakup keeps changing as the dynamics of your playing change. So the amp is kind of performing with you. But once you get into lots of effects, than it's harder for most people to tell the difference of whether they're listening to a tube amp or SS or modeling amp, provided everything is high quality. Of course, how you're going to use the equipment, in a bedroom or on a stage, makes a huge difference on what is the right equipment to use. A 100w Marshall for home play is usually not a good choice, unless your single and have no neighbors. :D

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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:03 am
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a topic of great debate.


Anything you put in the signal chain, while it all can add something, it always takes something away, sometimes, more than it adds.

so look at it this way, you spend some good chunk of cash for an all tube amp be it a fender or a marshall or what ever. they aint givin em away. a Marhsall JVM combo is gonna set ya back north of $2k, a fender, about $1,200. -- you get the idea..

so then, we plop a 99 dollar boss OD Pedal, a pedal board tuner, and 79 dollar delay.. your tone IS going to only be as good as your weakest component and truth be told, some of these things WILL suck the tone right out of your signal. And you're just not getting any bang for the buck on your investment.

If you're into what the amp gives you for clean, crunch, distortion, lead, that's the ideal amp for you. Now all ya really need is probably some delay now and then, and modulation, don't cheap out, get good ones, (true pass a pluss) use the amps FX loops, experiment a bit, and eventually you're probably on the path to tonal righteousness


Some of the modeling amps have come along way too, the Fender Mustangs are a great example. They're easy to setup, tear down, move, do a ton of things well,, but, when it really comes down to it side by side with a tube amp, there's nuances that are missing. Enough for me anyways to hear the difference.

Now, will you hear them with a bass player, drummer, keyboard player on stage during a performance,, maybe.. maybe not. I've gigged with both, I like the portability of the Mustang IV, I prefer the "tone" I get from my marshall or fender amps, and my pedal board. Which rig I use, depends largely on the gig.

At the end of the day the only correct answer is, what sounds great to you? It's different for everyone. we're all going for our own sound, and what we hear verse what we like, changes all the time.

Sometimes I honestly envy the guy who has one acoustic guitar, and he plays it to death.


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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:25 pm
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A lot depends on if your pedals are "buffered" or "true bypass."

A "buffered pedal is, in a sense, always on... the guitar output signal travels through the pedal's entire circuit as long as the pedal is in your chain and whether or not you engage the stomp button determines if the pedal's effect is added to the signal. Buffered pedals will discolor a true signal ever so slightly and the more pedals in your chain the more they discolor the signal even if the effect is not engaged.

A "tru-bypass" pedal only sends the signal through the pedal's circuit if it is engaged. Otherwise, the signal flows straight through the pedal without going through the effect circuit. This keeps the signal clean. However, the longer your instrument cable is; the more you have loss of high-end on your signal. Also, theoretically, the more patch cables you have running between pedals the more signal loss you may get.

The quality of your cables can affect tone as much as the length can.

I know folks who really know what they are doing know how to intermix true-bypass pedals and buffering pedals to keep the signal strong but not discolor it as much. Also some insert a EQ somewhere in their pedaltrain.

I am also getting into pedals for the first time having only used effect processors and modeling amps with onboard effects previously. I am primarily looking at true-bypass pedals to collect.

I am impressed thusfar with TC Electronic pedals because they are all true-bypass but can be converted to buffered by a switch in the battery box.

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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:58 pm
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True Bypass can be subjective too. Some cheaper petals seem to lose something in the circuits even on Bypass and if you have enough of them in the chain it adds up.

I have both tube and modeling amps. I can get a lot of different sounds out of the modeling amps but like many others I don't like the digital sound and miss the warmth of tubes. My solution was to get a cheap and simple tubed preamp(mine is a little thing for about $50 that is made to use with a mike, acoustic guitar or keyboards) and put it between the guitar and the modeling amp. There are a few hybrid modeling amps out there that have built in real tube preamps but my setup seems to do the same thing. Just a little gain from it and that digital sound goes away while giving me all the warmth I want. Best of both worlds. I still have some digital multi effect pedals laying around that I gave up on. Guess I could experiment by using one with the tubed preamp into either a tube or modeling amp but not sure if should put the preamp before or after the digital pedal. Thinking best to let the digital pedal have the guitar signal then out to the preamp for the tube magic before it goes into the amp.


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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:45 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Be careful when trying to build a true bypass system. You will find that there is a true benefit to having at least one buffered pedal, otherwise you will likely experience volume jumps and or drops switching between various true bypass pedals. I highly recommend you research the topic before buying into and or buying a ton of pedals. Here is a good one to start with.

http://www.petecornish.co.uk/case_against_true_bypass.html


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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:33 pm
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True bypass should have next to no attenuation - no more than a few inches of cable.
But beware that some manufacturers have redefined "true bypass" to mean something completely different - just that it's non-buffered. The signal is still routed through the electronics of the pedal. Shame on those manufacturers.
In general, a pedal that doesn't click won't have true bypass either. It may have bypass of some sort, but seldom a mechanical sturdy relay that prevents signals from being routed through the pedal electronics.

The main benefit of a buffered pedal is that you don't get a click or pop in the speakers when switching it on or off, and also long-lasting effects like reverb or echo or sustain are allowed to die out for the tones already playing, instead of suddenly being silenced.

Volume-wise, there's little benefit despite what many think. You may clip some overly strong signals, but that may not be what you want. And if you lose signal strength, check your cables and connectors. And do you really need a 25' cable? Perhaps an 18.6' cable will do, or even a 12' or 10' if you don't move too far from the pedal board. Same for the cables between the pedal board(s) and amp. Having big fat coils behind the amp isn't going to do your signal much good.


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Post subject: Re: Pedal Question
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:10 am
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When I'm playing 1 genre of music I love using my Fender or Marshall tube amp with maybe 3 - 4 pedals at the most. I can tweek the pedals so their is no tone suck and the sound fills the club. Now if I'm playing different styles in sound like Gilmour, Metallica, Smashing Pumpkins, QOTSA and Trower all in 1 show I always use my Peavey Vypyr 120. I can go from playing Gilmour's Pink Floyd to playing Smashing Pumpkins just with the click of a button. It's very hard to try to achieve all these sounds using a variety of pedals of which will drain the original sound whereas a modeling amp can do all in a small setting. Now if I were to do any of the above artist alone with a tube amp with correctly tweeked pedals, by far the tube amp will sound the best.

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