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What type amp do you take to a gig?
Non-modeling amp, Tube or SS, w/ cabinet 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
Modeling Amp w/ cabinet (Mustang and like) 27%  27%  [ 8 ]
Modeling Amp wo/ cabinet (footswitch or rack etc.) 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Non-modeling amp w/modeling pedal(s) and FX 13%  13%  [ 4 ]
Other 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 30
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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:02 pm
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I am just gonna throw in my grenade and go ... So have a Line 6 spider3 head running thru a 2x12 cabinet with vintage EVM12L speakers (the EVMs that I bought out of the backdoor at the Mesa Boogie factory in Petaluma, CA). And having Line 6 in this forum makes me about as popular as a butcher at a PETA convention. Everyone talks about the effects ... yes, they suck; my head has all the effect features, and the only one worth using is the "tape echo" effect which is actually okay if used sparingly. Everyone talks about the million factory presets ... yes, those suck, too (every last one). But once you clear the effects, and (you need to spend some time on this step) dial in the tone, you can get amazing tone out of it. I have 5 electrics, and they are all very different. And the real beauty of my Line 6 is being able to have clean, dirty, and heavy tones dialed into the presets for EACH guitar. All the tweaking has been done ... so I just press a button, and I have hot and cold running perfect tone. How cool is that??

I have considered going the "proper" tube route ... but, in the end, the difference of the many tube amps I played was not nearly as good as some people think it is. Being very honest here, I think many guitarists make up their opinion based more on the name on the amp and tubes inside it instead of how it actually sounds. I would ask myself, "does this really sound better than what you already got?", "do you really wanna go down the road of having to 'dial in' a new amp?", and ... most importantly ... "are you willing to lose all the preset functionality that I take for granted?" The answer to all those questions, invariably, is "no". Admittedly, I am not a gigging pro. Not whatsoever. But, in my little corner of the world, I got a ripping setup that surprises lots of people when they hear what comes out of it. Just saying ...

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:43 pm
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shred6 wrote:
Drew365 wrote:
We probably scared him off. He's going to take up accordian.
I have a question about tube amps, that may be born from my ignorance. There's a lot of really nice boutique tube amps being built right now. As I read the descriptions of multiple gain stages inserted at different spots in the chain, I wonder if I would know how to get the most from some of these amps. Am I over thinking this, or do you really need to understand how each of these amps is wired in order to set it and use it properly?


I'm on the other side of the fence when it comes to this. What some may call over-thinking, I call fine tuning. I made it my mission to understand the gain stages in my old Mesa Dual Rec. and it paid off beautifully. Especially in the studio.

But I can tell you, it took a lot of time and money. I wouldn't change gaining that knowledge for anything, and I consider it time and money well spent.

I'm with you. I'm overly inquisitive and I complicate my life a lot because of it. But when I master something that was difficult, there's a big payoff in self pride. I nearly bought a Mesa King Snake with dual gain stages, that I didn't understand. In the back of my head I'm thinking I might go for it some day and see what I can get out of it. Carlos Santana doesn't seem like a rocket scientist to me.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:12 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
Lightnin MN wrote:

I'm sure you're aware of the growing appreciation of analog music on LPs because it has more 'Life' (for lack of a better word) than digitally mastered music.

cheers!


It's only a matter of time until we see a growing appreciation for cathode ray tube TV's over flat screens given this "vintage" love-fest fad going on. I knew that old Zenith in my garage still had some life left in it!!! :lol:


After 29 years of broadcasting in network TV control rooms, I have flat screen HDTV and a projection 3 gun CRT HDTV. Compare this with the amp preference and we get to convenience and flexibility in electronics with room for a great deal of improvement versus what are considered mature mediums. Although each have their weaknesses and benefits, older technologies are clear in their abilities while new technology that is not mature tends to lack standards and is quick to avoid its short comings.

My flat screens are used for most video and PC viewing where they have flexibility; but, because motion is less than the best, blacks smear (especially in large areas), skin tone and clarity pretty much looks like an illustration, artifacts occur, and such, I still enjoy the CRT big screen for movies and sometimes Sports.

I have high end Class A audio with both analogue and digital sources from reel to reel multiple track to my Fender Mustang IV and just about everything between, including an audiophile turntable :wink:

Now would be a good time to introduce a tube jukebox sound and run it up against the iPod or similar digital playback of choice. Better still, put the best tube stereo up against the best solid state and so on and so on.

The point is, digital in all it's greatness is always comparing itself to analogue ... not the other way around ... and it hasn't gotten there yet ... and then it competes without a common ground. Heck, we listen to music on a phone and throw out the stereo nowadays. :shock:

In reality, we compare apples to oranges. I have a digital guitar amp, have used analogue amps and I like both for different applications. Microphones and speakers are analogue so that might hold the key.

Until digital and analogue meets with the best of both worlds we are left in limbo for the holy grail.

I do know, however, an iPod full of music is lighter than a Ghetto blaster with a cassette deck. Same goes for those heavy tube amps. Now if only digital could make an 8 inch speaker sound like it was 12 inches. Wait a dang minute. Isn't that what digital amps emulate with cabinet changes? . :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:39 am
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Probably covered in the preceeding pages but I think the crux here is gigging and relative to what type of music you play.

If it's your own music, or a specific genre, that's one thing. If it's a vast array of covers, of all different types, that's some thing else.

I was in the latter and the convenience of a modeling amp was unbeatable. Nobody wants to wait while you ponce about changing settings to get the right sound for a song.

However I missed the dynamics of tubes....so I bought a Marshall JMP 1 (it's good enough for Billy Gibbons and others). I use the Marshall as the pre (which has midi switchable tone presets) and my previous modeling amp for effects and speaker emulation. Great set up and, to some extent the best of all world's. Why doesn't Marshall still make the JMP1?

One of the advantages of the JMP1 is it is easy to tweak the settings. So many modeling heads the settings are so deeply hidden in layers of menus that you can't give them a quick tweak in the same way you turn a knob.

Another issue is with banks and banks of presets for specific songs is bizarrely they only seem right for that specific song.

As a result of this inflexibility, when playing for pleasure, a tube combo and pedals (when needed) is much more enjoyable - but I don't need to morph from Hank Marvin to Scott Gorham in 3 seconds.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:15 am
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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:46 am
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dunedindragon wrote:


We can go on and on over tube amp "warmth" and that discussion will never be resolved, because it's subjective. But ultimately gigging is a business, and you have to make the best non-subjective business decision if you intend to endure and be successful in the business. Modeling amps are far and away the most cost-effective way of providing a reliable and inherently versatile amp for doing what needs to be done in your business. And the undeniable fact is, 99% of your audience has no idea about whether you're using a modeling amp or a tube amp.


I tried using my little tubed preamp from my acoustic setup between the guitar and my modeling amp. With just a little drive I got plenty of tube warmth and lost that digital sound that was bothering me. Guess would be more of a hybrid setup but for about $50 is worth it.


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:25 am
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IMO, this says a lot about where things are going with modeling for gigs:

Image Modeling Amp w/ cabinet (Mustang and like) 26%

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:46 am
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My tube amp has 6 knobs. Modeling amp has all kinds of menus and submenus. I'm sure that if I read the manual about 20 more times and spent about 20 more hours playing with the presets I could make it sound a lot better than it does but I like to play THROUGH the amp, not WITH it.

Is it possible that those who really like modeling amps are the ones who devoted a lot of time into learning all about it and tweaking their presets just the way they want them while those who are anti-modeling just didn't take the time to fully know the amp and set it up the way they want?

For me it seems like the learning curve is longer on the modeling, Doesn't take long to find the tone I want with a tube amp and six knobs. With the modeling amp I've managed to get a few presets that cover Chet Atkins type fingerpicking, blues, classic rock and country. None as well as the tube amp though. Some posters make up a new preset for each song and sometimes multiple ones for one song! Just like a computer, the more time you spend fiddling with it the more you learn and the better you can make it do what you want it to do. I can't imagine spending that much time in front of an amp pushing buttons instead of bending strings though!

Maybe sometimes it pays to be geeky and into all the high tech electronics(no offense to geeks - the world would grind to a halt without them).


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:02 pm
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I think if you grew up around all the technology and stuff like Pro Tools, you could probably fall right into it. Strings, the guys on the video play great, I really enjoyed the playing aspect but not so much the tone. Sorry. I realize how it was recorded but there was a lot lacking. I know I'll probably get beat up over it. :oops: Even the humbucker equipped guitars sounded thin. Guess you have to be there in person. Seems like the amp makes all the guitars sound too similar regardless of the brand of pickups used. Not saying it sounds horrible, just generic.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:29 pm
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fenderfan wrote:
Doesn't take long to find the tone I want with a tube amp and six knobs.

The amp models generally have as many knobs as the real amps. But if you want your average tube amp to do everything a modeling amp can do, you're looking at a lot more knobs:

Flanger
Phaser
Delay
Built-in tuner
Multiple reverbs
Ring modulator
Vibrato effect
Compressor
Noise Gate
Chorus
Pitch shifting
Supports Expression Pedal
Etc. Etc.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:47 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
fenderfan wrote:
Doesn't take long to find the tone I want with a tube amp and six knobs.

The amp models generally have as many knobs as the real amps. But if you want your average tube amp to do everything a modeling amp can do, you're looking at a lot more knobs:

Flanger
Phaser
Delay
Built-in tuner
Multiple reverbs
Ring modulator
Vibrato effect
Compressor
Noise Gate
Chorus
Pitch shifting
Supports Expression Pedal
Etc. Etc.


I guess, if you really need all that stuff. There won't be any presets either. So you might have to turn a few dials to get a tone you like. Factory Presets are like buying a pair of jeans with holes and wear already there. Like the Roadworn guitars. It's all done for you and it all looks and sounds the same, at least till you get board ans start noodling or download somebody else's presets. My Gdec 30 has presets and models and it's the only amp I have that sits unused most of the time. Funny thing is I cant even sell the thing because it's only worth like fifty bucks even with the fancy footswitch. I've been thinking about gutting it and putting a small tube amp in it. If modeling floats your boat there's really nothing wrong with it. Some guys sound great no matter what they play out of.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:30 pm
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John Sims wrote:

However I missed the dynamics of tubes....so I bought a Marshall JMP 1 (it's good enough for Billy Gibbons and others). I use the Marshall as the pre (which has midi switchable tone presets) and my previous modeling amp for effects and speaker emulation. Great set up and, to some extent the best of all world's. Why doesn't Marshall still make the JMP1?


Other than me you are the only person I've seen post about adding a tube preamp between the guitar and a modeling amp. Mine was about $50 and fits in a gig bag pocket. I don't crank it though. Just a little gain adds enough tube richness to get rid of the digital sound I didn't like and add warmth. Like you said, best of both worlds.

But maybe everyone else is snickering and waiting to see how long it takes us to fry our amps? The Fender Champ has that setup built in but would have cost me more.


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:11 pm
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Wow, that's a lot of feedback, and I thank everyone for their opinions. Somebody earlier on wanted to know where the OP (me) went to, and that I was probably scared off. No, not hiding in fear, lurking with cautious enthusiasm maybe.

I am encouraged that there seems to be a significant group of those who are comfortable with trying the new fangled in a performance setting, and I have a healthy respect for those who have a more traditional rig that is time proven.

In a lot of ways this discussion has raised more questions for me than I had originally thought of. The original question of what to take to gig implies more than just tone, but the ability to cut through to an audience in a variety of spaces, reliability, portability etc.

Asking these questions on forum's like this is a little like tossing a grenade into a crowded room, closing the door and then listening through the wall to the muffled chaos inside.

Thanks again for the replies, it's good food for thought.


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:28 pm
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63supro wrote:
Factory Presets are like buying a pair of jeans with holes and wear already there.

I would say it's more like buying an Elton John outfit off the rack. :lol:

Image

Seriously, I don't use a single factory installed preset. It's like pressing the 'DEMO' button on a Casio keyboard.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:41 pm
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:lol: Got that right. I'm amazed at how many do use them and you can hear that over processed stuff right away. Same thing with effect processors and tube amps too. It completely destroys the tone of both the guitar and the amp. The kazoo tone is a dead giveaway.

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