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What type amp do you take to a gig?
Non-modeling amp, Tube or SS, w/ cabinet 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
Modeling Amp w/ cabinet (Mustang and like) 27%  27%  [ 8 ]
Modeling Amp wo/ cabinet (footswitch or rack etc.) 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Non-modeling amp w/modeling pedal(s) and FX 13%  13%  [ 4 ]
Other 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 30
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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:38 pm
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63supro wrote:
Never said you don't know any better and I'm glad you enjoy your modeling amp. As far as your audience not knowing, the test I use is how many people are still there for the second or third set. I usually hang around at a local bar and listen to the local bands if I'm not playing anywhere. Some bands can keep their audience most of the night, some lose them after the first set. The reasons vary, but a lot of times sound quality is a problem. Not just too loud, but the quality of the sound. Don't underestimate you audience, they hear better than you think.


I'm pretty sure there's a plethora of sound quality problems that come into play to drive audiences away LOOOONG before the type of amp being used by someone in the band. In fact, I can't remember that last time I heard anyone say, "I'd like to stay here, but I just can't stand listening to that guitar player's amp anymore". :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:50 pm
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63supro wrote:
Thanks for the photos Brian. That's a flashback for me. Was that a Kustom tuck roll cab under the bench too? Man sometimes I wish I hung onto some of the old stuff I had.


Yeah, a c. '69 Kustom 100 rig, I have both the solid state head and matching 1x15 cab. It was my first "real" amp. The head works but other than ability to be loud and a nice spring reverb, it's not a great head. The cab, however, is great. The speaker is a J.B. Lansing, the precursor to JBL, and sounds great with a decent tube head:

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:06 pm
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dunedindragon wrote:
63supro wrote:
Never said you don't know any better and I'm glad you enjoy your modeling amp. As far as your audience not knowing, the test I use is how many people are still there for the second or third set. I usually hang around at a local bar and listen to the local bands if I'm not playing anywhere. Some bands can keep their audience most of the night, some lose them after the first set. The reasons vary, but a lot of times sound quality is a problem. Not just too loud, but the quality of the sound. Don't underestimate you audience, they hear better than you think.


I'm pretty sure there's a plethora of sound quality problems that come into play to drive audiences away LOOOONG before the type of amp being used by someone in the band. In fact, I can't remember that last time I heard anyone say, "I'd like to stay here, but I just can't stand listening to that guitar player's amp anymore". :lol:


Come to my neighborhood sometime. I've seen other locals and even bar owners tell some guitar players to either fix it or get out. One place even uses a decibel
meter. Go over whatever he says is his max and your out, and you don't get paid. I've heard patrons tell bands their guitars sound like crap. People know what sound good and what sounds bad. They don't know anything about amps, but they know what bothers them especially if they pay a cover.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:50 pm
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63supro wrote:
dunedindragon wrote:
63supro wrote:
Never said you don't know any better and I'm glad you enjoy your modeling amp. As far as your audience not knowing, the test I use is how many people are still there for the second or third set. I usually hang around at a local bar and listen to the local bands if I'm not playing anywhere. Some bands can keep their audience most of the night, some lose them after the first set. The reasons vary, but a lot of times sound quality is a problem. Not just too loud, but the quality of the sound. Don't underestimate you audience, they hear better than you think.


I'm pretty sure there's a plethora of sound quality problems that come into play to drive audiences away LOOOONG before the type of amp being used by someone in the band. In fact, I can't remember that last time I heard anyone say, "I'd like to stay here, but I just can't stand listening to that guitar player's amp anymore". :lol:


Come to my neighborhood sometime. I've seen other locals and even bar owners tell some guitar players to either fix it or get out. One place even uses a decibel
meter. Go over whatever he says is his max and your out, and you don't get paid. I've heard patrons tell bands their guitars sound like crap. People know what sound good and what sounds bad. They don't know anything about amps, but they know what bothers them especially if they pay a cover.


Well... bad "sound" issues can happen regardless of whether someone's running tube or SS amps... I wonder if the owner of that bar has taken measures to insure that the room has been acoustically tuned for best sound performance... yeah... SURE he did :lol:

For the record... from my own personal experience... In a band situation... you can't tell the diff bwtween tube or modeller... If your running a quality modelling amp like a Mustang. Response... depth... tone... dynamics... are all there.

I just went to a full band rehearsal... the other Cat has a Bogner Tube piggie... Very nice 100 watt amp... my MIII pissed right down it's back... Yep... sounded MORE bad $@! than his Bogner... better cut... more definition... cleaner cleans... dirtier dirt... better SOUND... and easier to control the volume.

Perhaps this is just too much for some folks to believe... but hey, some people know what they like... and they like what they know.

Enjoy your Tube Amp if that's what floats your boat... Enjoy your SS amp if that's what floats your boat... Fact of the matter is that SS modelling amps (at least in the case of the Mustang Line of amplifiers) has caught up to getting that "Tube" tone, response, dynamics, depth etc...

I'm not anti tube by any degree.. I LOVE "tube tone"... but I also like being able to have the type of control that the Mustang offers (in spades!) so I can... literally... be in complete control of every aspect of making the overall sound... the best it can be in a live performance situation... without pissing off patrons or $@!&#*% bar owners :D

I'd rather get paid for the gig... not get $@!&*% out of my pay for the night :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:35 pm
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Man, what a read this was. I think a lot of good points came from all angles.

In my experiences, I found myself opting to gig with a Roland JC-50 and analog pedal board most of the time.

I absolutely love my Roland JC. It takes pedals through the front end very well. I played a lot of gigs outside in 100+ weather. I didn't want to put my tube amp through 3-sets in that kind of heat.

Whenever we played bigger shows or local festivals, I'd use my HRDV. It did have more of a sweet sound to it. But I liked both equally for what they were.

Lately, since I haven't been playing out, I've been playing my tube amps a lot. The Ampeg Superjet gets a lot of play for rock stuff. But when I really want to get heavy, the Triamp gets fired up.

I'd be ok with modeling amps for clean and rock tones. But when it comes to really heavy stuff, I honestly haven't heard a modeling amp do what the Triamp does in its lead channel. Any time I've heard other people do heavy stuff with modelers, it's pretty noticeable to me. I still kinda think they're not capable. When it comes to doing Mesa, H&K, Soldano, Rivera type stuff, I just don't think they quite make the grade.

For gigging though? I'm all about the JC and pedals. Lightweight, reliable, and great sound.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:09 am
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63supro wrote:
Come to my neighborhood sometime. I've seen other locals and even bar owners tell some guitar players to either fix it or get out. One place even uses a decibel
meter. Go over whatever he says is his max and your out, and you don't get paid. I've heard patrons tell bands their guitars sound like crap. People know what sound good and what sounds bad. They don't know anything about amps, but they know what bothers them especially if they pay a cover.


Aside from playing in my own band, I often provide sound gear and run sound for a variety of multi-band events both indoor and outdoor. The most consistent problem I encounter is the guitar player who, in spite of everything being mic'd, believes he has to have his amp set to compete with the PA. Of course he can't compete with it since we use a QSC Line Array system. So ultimately what we do is simply mute his guitar amp mic. So in an outdoor situation he sounds okay (other than overpowering the vocals) for the first 50 feet or so, but beyond that you won't hear him much at all because his amp doesn't have enough throw to compete with a line array. Indoors he'll simply blast one side of the hall where his amp is positioned, but be lost in the mix on the opposite side.

Although these are always guys using some kind of Marshall or Mesa stack, I don't think that really matters. The master volume knobs work the same on both modellers and tube amps. I'm sure many of the patrons of these events would characterize the guitar as sounding like crap, but that had nothing to do with the tone of the guitar. It had to do with the mix of the guitar with everything else.

Of course the "guitar sounding like crap" isn't exactly a scientific explanation of what's going wrong. I know I've used that term to describe situations ranging from too much distortion to a lack of the guitarists skills to accurately play what he's supposed to be playing. All of which are possible on modellers or tube amps.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:14 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
63supro wrote:
Come to my neighborhood sometime. I've seen other locals and even bar owners tell some guitar players to either fix it or get out. One place even uses a decibel
meter. Go over whatever he says is his max and your out, and you don't get paid. I've heard patrons tell bands their guitars sound like crap. People know what sound good and what sounds bad. They don't know anything about amps, but they know what bothers them especially if they pay a cover.


Aside from playing in my own band, I often provide sound gear and run sound for a variety of multi-band events both indoor and outdoor. The most consistent problem I encounter is the guitar player who, in spite of everything being mic'd, believes he has to have his amp set to compete with the PA. Of course he can't compete with it since we use a QSC Line Array system. So ultimately what we do is simply mute his guitar amp mic. So in an outdoor situation he sounds okay (other than overpowering the vocals) for the first 50 feet or so, but beyond that you won't hear him much at all because his amp doesn't have enough throw to compete with a line array. Indoors he'll simply blast one side of the hall where his amp is positioned, but be lost in the mix on the opposite side.

Although these are always guys using some kind of Marshall or Mesa stack, I don't think that really matters. The master volume knobs work the same on both modellers and tube amps. I'm sure many of the patrons of these events would characterize the guitar as sounding like crap, but that had nothing to do with the tone of the guitar. It had to do with the mix of the guitar with everything else.

Of course the "guitar sounding like crap" isn't exactly a scientific explanation of what's going wrong. I know I've used that term to describe situations ranging from too much distortion to a lack of the guitarists skills to accurately play what he's supposed to be playing. All of which are possible on modellers or tube amps.


That has always been and always be a problem. Too many players not understanding stage volume. For me, I've spent forty plus years fine tuning my sound, so tubes it is for me. Given a choice between a straight solid state and pedals and a modeler, I'd go straight solid state and pedals. I like certain brands of pedals or ones I build.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:18 am
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63supro wrote:
For me, I've spent forty plus years fine tuning my sound, so tubes it is for me. Given a choice between a straight solid state and pedals and a modeler, I'd go straight solid state and pedals. I like certain brands of pedals or ones I build.

I think that many of us like to have the extra control, even if most of the time we don't use it. But simple things like being able to adjust the amount of breakup without changing the volume is nice to have at your fingertips (or toes).


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:04 pm
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I wonder whatever happened to the OP of this thread... Be interesting to hear back from them...

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:20 pm
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We probably scared him off. He's going to take up accordian.
I have a question about tube amps, that may be born from my ignorance. There's a lot of really nice boutique tube amps being built right now. As I read the descriptions of multiple gain stages inserted at different spots in the chain, I wonder if I would know how to get the most from some of these amps. Am I over thinking this, or do you really need to understand how each of these amps is wired in order to set it and use it properly?

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:30 pm
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Drew365 wrote:
We probably scared him off. He's going to take up accordian.
I have a question about tube amps, that may be born from my ignorance. There's a lot of really nice boutique tube amps being built right now. As I read the descriptions of multiple gain stages inserted at different spots in the chain, I wonder if I would know how to get the most from some of these amps. Am I over thinking this, or do you really need to understand how each of these amps is wired in order to set it and use it properly?


Yes, you called it, you're overthinking.

Fwiw I don't know dick about tube amp wiring. Or any other amp's, for that matter.

Nor does any guitarist really need to. Bottom line, can you get a good sound to come out?

Then you're golden.

If I'm not mistaken the tubes are the glowy bits in the back. That's the extent of my technical knowledge. Anybody tells you that you need more than that is flat wrong.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:44 pm
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arth1 wrote:
63supro wrote:
For me, I've spent forty plus years fine tuning my sound, so tubes it is for me. Given a choice between a straight solid state and pedals and a modeler, I'd go straight solid state and pedals. I like certain brands of pedals or ones I build.

I think that many of us like to have the extra control, even if most of the time we don't use it. But simple things like being able to adjust the amount of breakup without changing the volume is nice to have at your fingertips (or toes).


That's the fun thing about a 5e3. You play the amp. This is the dynamics I talk about. You have so much control just with your attack controlling the dynamics. How much distortion you get depends on how hard you hammer the strings. A Tweed Deluxe doesn't get that much louder as you go up the dial, it just gets more saturation, sag etc. Jump the channels and it add even more tonal variation and dynamics to the mix. It's a fun amp. I have a whole pedalboard of stuff I rarely use. Usually I run two amps with a A/B/Y box I built from BYOC. It has isolation transformers and is dead silent switching. None of the effects run into my Tweed, everything else either runs into either my Egnater or my Marshall clone. It depends on the gig. If I'm with a Blues band it's the Tweed or Marshall alone. Classic rock or originals gets the full treatment.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:49 pm
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Brian Krashpad wrote:
Drew365 wrote:
We probably scared him off. He's going to take up accordian.
I have a question about tube amps, that may be born from my ignorance. There's a lot of really nice boutique tube amps being built right now. As I read the descriptions of multiple gain stages inserted at different spots in the chain, I wonder if I would know how to get the most from some of these amps. Am I over thinking this, or do you really need to understand how each of these amps is wired in order to set it and use it properly?


Yes, you called it, you're overthinking.

Fwiw I don't know dick about tube amp wiring. Or any other amp's, for that matter.

Nor does any guitarist really need to. Bottom line, can you get a good sound to come out?

Then you're golden.

If I'm not mistaken the tubes are the glowy bits in the back. That's the extent of my technical knowledge. Anybody tells you that you need more than that is flat wrong.

Rock and roll ain't rocket science.


Exactly. I've built amps but the only questions I can answer are the mechanics of building them. I don't know squat about the technical stuff. All I know is multiple gain stages ain't easy, can be noisy, and costly to maintain because all the amps like Mesa have a lot of tubes in them. I like simple stuff.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:17 pm
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63supro wrote:
Brian Krashpad wrote:
Drew365 wrote:
We probably scared him off. He's going to take up accordian.
I have a question about tube amps, that may be born from my ignorance. There's a lot of really nice boutique tube amps being built right now. As I read the descriptions of multiple gain stages inserted at different spots in the chain, I wonder if I would know how to get the most from some of these amps. Am I over thinking this, or do you really need to understand how each of these amps is wired in order to set it and use it properly?


Yes, you called it, you're overthinking.

Fwiw I don't know dick about tube amp wiring. Or any other amp's, for that matter.

Nor does any guitarist really need to. Bottom line, can you get a good sound to come out?

Then you're golden.

If I'm not mistaken the tubes are the glowy bits in the back. That's the extent of my technical knowledge. Anybody tells you that you need more than that is flat wrong.

Rock and roll ain't rocket science.


Exactly. I've built amps but the only questions I can answer are the mechanics of building them. I don't know squat about the technical stuff. All I know is multiple gain stages ain't easy, can be noisy, and costly to maintain because all the amps like Mesa have a lot of tubes in them. I like simple stuff.


If you've built anything you're miles beyond me!

If I recall correctly I re-soldered a pickup selector switch on a cheap Korean Gretsch once.

Virtually all the amps I have are extremely simple.

The only one that even arguably isn't is the Super Champ XD that I use for church and low-vol gigs. But even that one has nothing on some of those Marshalls with 28 knobs (the Fender has eight). And I basically use only two dirt models (Vox and Modern Marshall), the clean channel, and a little delay (except when called on to do an Edge-esque thing).

I'm the same when it comes to pedals. Here's my pedal board with my main band, the one I use a tube amp with:

Image

When I play low-vol gigs with the SC XD, I go hog wild:

Image


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:18 pm
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Drew365 wrote:
We probably scared him off. He's going to take up accordian.
I have a question about tube amps, that may be born from my ignorance. There's a lot of really nice boutique tube amps being built right now. As I read the descriptions of multiple gain stages inserted at different spots in the chain, I wonder if I would know how to get the most from some of these amps. Am I over thinking this, or do you really need to understand how each of these amps is wired in order to set it and use it properly?


I'm on the other side of the fence when it comes to this. What some may call over-thinking, I call fine tuning. I made it my mission to understand the gain stages in my old Mesa Dual Rec. and it paid off beautifully. Especially in the studio.

But I can tell you, it took a lot of time and money. I wouldn't change gaining that knowledge for anything, and I consider it time and money well spent.

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