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What type amp do you take to a gig?
Non-modeling amp, Tube or SS, w/ cabinet 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
Modeling Amp w/ cabinet (Mustang and like) 27%  27%  [ 8 ]
Modeling Amp wo/ cabinet (footswitch or rack etc.) 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Non-modeling amp w/modeling pedal(s) and FX 13%  13%  [ 4 ]
Other 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 30
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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:13 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
And the MIII will deliver those dulcet tones for a half century or more, right?

:roll:

That'll be the day.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Arjay


We'll have to wait and see :?:
I'm sure it will need servicing somewhere down the line... same as the tube amps I've owned... which have all had parts wear out... go bad ... blow up, etc....
BUT... proper servicing did put them back on their feet 8)

Not to be on a soapbox about the Mustangs.... however.... I willl say... they are well made amps... at least the III's and higher are of good quality... I also have a MI for practicing... decent little bugger for it's size.... again, good construction... it's a durable little $@!&#*...

Can I say I'll never use a Tube Amp again?.... who knows... If I do... it's def going to be a smaller one... I'm over 80 pound and up combos... I'm more into small and portable these days...
Crap, I remember the Ampeg VT40 I used to own... holy crap was that thing HEAVY... sounded friggin awesome... but damn, what a PITA that thing was to cart around to and from the gig :shock: and it had a nasty habit of frying preamp tubes :x

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:58 am
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Strat-Slinger wrote:
We'll have to wait and see :?:
I'm sure it will need servicing somewhere down the line... same as the tube amps I've owned... which have all had parts wear out... go bad ... blow up, etc....
BUT... proper servicing did put them back on their feet 8)

Not to be on a soapbox about the Mustangs.... however.... I willl say... they are well made amps... at least the III's and higher are of good quality... I also have a MI for practicing... decent little bugger for it's size.... again, good construction... it's a durable little $@!&#*...

Can I say I'll never use a Tube Amp again?.... who knows... If I do... it's def going to be a smaller one... I'm over 80 pound and up combos... I'm more into small and portable these days...
Crap, I remember the Ampeg VT40 I used to own... holy crap was that thing HEAVY... sounded friggin awesome... but damn, what a PITA that thing was to cart around to and from the gig :shock: and it had a nasty habit of frying preamp tubes :x


I'm with you on that! Over the last 50 years of playing in bands I've used pretty much every type of amp out there (anyone remember the Magnatone MP-5? What a BEAST that was!!). I've settled on the Mustang IV for the stage and a Mustang I for home practice. And it's not just about seeking out tones so I can "polish" them off with tubes. It's about having a rig that's manageable for the road and for gigging. Playing as we do it's all about portability, predictability/consistency of our sound, and more than anything...flexibility. In a one hour show we'll cover a number of various styles from metal, to rock, to blues, to R&B/Funk, to country, to acoustic. Could I do that with a tube amp and a range of pedals. Yeah, probably. Or I can do it with a modeling amp with one click of the footswitch to the correct tone at a consistent volume so I don't drive our sound engineer and the rest of the band crazy. Given that not a single soul in the audience is going to care whether it's a tube amp or a modeling amp, it's a no-brainer decision.

I only wish amps like this had been available years ago when I was doing session work. It would have saved me so much time.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:47 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
Strat-Slinger wrote:
We'll have to wait and see :?:
I'm sure it will need servicing somewhere down the line... same as the tube amps I've owned... which have all had parts wear out... go bad ... blow up, etc....
BUT... proper servicing did put them back on their feet 8)

Not to be on a soapbox about the Mustangs.... however.... I willl say... they are well made amps... at least the III's and higher are of good quality... I also have a MI for practicing... decent little bugger for it's size.... again, good construction... it's a durable little $@!&#*...

Can I say I'll never use a Tube Amp again?.... who knows... If I do... it's def going to be a smaller one... I'm over 80 pound and up combos... I'm more into small and portable these days...
Crap, I remember the Ampeg VT40 I used to own... holy crap was that thing HEAVY... sounded friggin awesome... but damn, what a PITA that thing was to cart around to and from the gig :shock: and it had a nasty habit of frying preamp tubes :x


I'm with you on that! Over the last 50 years of playing in bands I've used pretty much every type of amp out there (anyone remember the Magnatone MP-5? What a BEAST that was!!). I've settled on the Mustang IV for the stage and a Mustang I for home practice. And it's not just about seeking out tones so I can "polish" them off with tubes. It's about having a rig that's manageable for the road and for gigging. Playing as we do it's all about portability, predictability/consistency of our sound, and more than anything...flexibility. In a one hour show we'll cover a number of various styles from metal, to rock, to blues, to R&B/Funk, to country, to acoustic. Could I do that with a tube amp and a range of pedals. Yeah, probably. Or I can do it with a modeling amp with one click of the footswitch to the correct tone at a consistent volume so I don't drive our sound engineer and the rest of the band crazy. Given that not a single soul in the audience is going to care whether it's a tube amp or a modeling amp, it's a no-brainer decision.

I only wish amps like this had been available years ago when I was doing session work. It would have saved me so much time.


I concur whole heartedly! There's a reason and purpose for each piece of gear. For the small time musician without a roadie or road cases, a modeling amp combo makes the most sense, if you need a variety of sounds to do covers.
Sometimes I'll play my preset through my modeling amp, then switch to my Egnator w/ custom cabinets and my super pedal board, and yes the Egnator and pedals sound better. But there's no way in yell that I'm dragging the Egnator head, two cabinets and a huge pedal board out to a gig.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:47 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
And the MIII will deliver those dulcet tones for a half century or more, right?

Arjay, it doesn't have to. Think about it. It wouldn't make any more sense than a smart phone that's built to last a half century and costs $2500+.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:47 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
And the MIII will deliver those dulcet tones for a half century or more, right?

Arjay, it doesn't have to. Think about it. It wouldn't make any more sense than a smart phone that's built to last a half century and costs $2500+.


Those things aren't worth a $hit either.

But the Western Electric dial phone hanging on the wall in my garage still works as well as the day it was built in 1970.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:25 pm
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All I know is I can just plug right into my 5e3 no pedals and have a great sound without pissing around with presets, Fuse or have some sterile sounding digital effect between me and my guitar and amp. That's me though. If that's what you like more power to you. Oh, and my Tweed only weighs about 35lbs.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:39 pm
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63supro wrote:
Oh, and my Tweed only weighs about 35lbs.


......and your great-great grandson will be playing it someday.

:wink:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:41 pm
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63supro wrote:
All I know is I can just plug right into my 5e3 no pedals and have a great sound without pissing around with presets, Fuse or have some sterile sounding digital effect between me and my guitar and amp. That's me though. If that's what you like more power to you. Oh, and my Tweed only weighs about 35lbs.


So if you're playing a gig, (remember that was the original question), and a cover song needs, say distortion and chorus, you get that with your fingers?
You don't need to answer. There really is no answer to a lot of questions asked on this forum. But a lot of guys are really stone headed about a lot of things.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:09 pm
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Drew, first, the music I play doesn't require a bunch of effects. Much of our stuff is original and when we play covers, we don't parrot the song note for note and effect for effect. All you have to do is put a buck in the jukebox and get that. Has nothing to do with being "stone headed". It has to do with being original in everything you play. Our audience likes it and that's what counts to us and they count on us to do what we do. I've been playing in bands for over 45 years and even supported myself playing music for a while in the 70's into the early 80's. It was fun, but family obligations came first. What I'm getting at is there are a lot of different genres of music. And yes, I can get distortion without a pedal. Try a 5e3 Tweed sometime. Can't do chorus but I do have a couple pedals that work. I have a Fulltone MDV3 and a clone of an Ibanez Flying Pan. I have lots of effects and built most of them myself, but I don't rely on them for covers. We all express ourselves differently, and that doesn't make someone stone headed. I just don't spend money on decent guitars to bury them under effects. Personally, I don't know anyone in my area using modeling amps. Most are tube amps and some solid state with pedal boards. They want to choose they're own brand of effects.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:29 pm
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63supro wrote:
Drew, first, the music I play doesn't require a bunch of effects. Much of our stuff is original and when we play covers, we don't parrot the song note for note and effect for effect. All you have to do is put a buck in the jukebox and get that. Has nothing to do with being "stone headed". It has to do with being original in everything you play. Our audience likes it and that's what counts to us and they count on us to do what we do. I've been playing in bands for over 45 years and even supported myself playing music for a while in the 70's into the early 80's. It was fun, but family obligations came first. What I'm getting at is there are a lot of different genres of music. And yes, I can get distortion without a pedal. Try a 5e3 Tweed sometime. Can't do chorus but I do have a couple pedals that work. I have a Fulltone MDV3 and a clone of an Ibanez Flying Pan. I have lots of effects and built most of them myself, but I don't rely on them for covers. We all express ourselves differently, and that doesn't make someone stone headed. I just don't spend money on decent guitars to bury them under effects. Personally, I don't know anyone in my area using modeling amps. Most are tube amps and some solid state with pedal boards. They want to choose they're own brand of effects.


I'd like to hear you guys play. I'd prefer to be doing originals, and I'm trying to work in that direction. Right now I'm just playing what comes along so I can stay active. My stone headed comment wasn't meant to be directed at you personally. Sorry if it seemed like that. There are a lot of posts on this forum that infers there is only one right way. Sometimes I beg to differ.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:21 pm
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Drew, it's no biggie. On the other side of the fence there's a lot of tube hounds here, myself included. It's not snobbery or anything like that, what we're accustomed to. I have a few solid state amps and I've even built a few small ones. The stuff starts when someone with a modeling amp tries to convince old tube guys that they sound the same as the real thing. Not saying you did anything, but some do. Modeling amps are what they are. I don't really care for digital stuff including digital effect pedals. Most of the stuff I build is old school. I've built a 5e3 a Marshall 1974 18 watt clone, a true point to point 5 watt amp and I just finished a true point to point tube driven reverb unit. I built a digital reverb unit, and don't really care for it too much. I know just enough to get me in trouble. It's fun though. Just try and understand the other side of the coin. Tube amps aren't going anywhere for a while. Boutique amp companies are springing up left and right and Supro amps and guitars are back! I can build a Supro myself though. :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:37 pm
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63supro wrote:
Drew, it's no biggie. On the other side of the fence there's a lot of tube hounds here, myself included. It's not snobbery or anything like that, what we're accustomed to. I have a few solid state amps and I've even built a few small ones. The stuff starts when someone with a modeling amp tries to convince old tube guys that they sound the same as the real thing. Not saying you did anything, but some do. Modeling amps are what they are. I don't really care for digital stuff including digital effect pedals. Most of the stuff I build is old school. I've built a 5e3 a Marshall 1974 18 watt clone, a true point to point 5 watt amp and I just finished a true point to point tube driven reverb unit. I built a digital reverb unit, and don't really care for it too much. I know just enough to get me in trouble. It's fun though. Just try and understand the other side of the coin. Tube amps aren't going anywhere for a while.

I'm sure that back in the 50s, there were many who thought that acoustic guitars were doomed and that electric guitars would be the future. And bass guitars would replace double basses. Or, later, that digital synths would replace analog ones. Perhaps there are drummers who think that electronic modeling drums will replace physical drums. Who knows.
History tells us that when new instruments arrive, they will either not make it, or they'll form a new class of instruments that will live alongside the old ones. Only very rarely will the new technology be so disruptive that old ones die.

Part of the key to long term success is that something has to be simple enough to be replicated and become ubiquitous, and can be used interchangeably. That's not the case for modeling amps. Each modeling amp will be different, and far from simple. You need to spend days reading manuals for many of them. That doesn't make them bad, any more than a Roland Jupiter synth is bad, but it does mean they will have a much harder time becoming a new standard, and that they likely will have a shorter shelf life, relying on always renewing and replacing themselves.

So no, I don't think tube amps are going anywhere either. They're a different instrument than a modeling amp; simpler to understand, and harder to play well. I see modeling amps being a good starting point, much like a digital synth is, but that throughout a career, many will venture into tube amps (or analog synths) when they reach a stage where a high number of presets made by others becomes a limiting factor, and they want to venture into a territory where subtle skills become more important than presets.

I have both tube amps, solid state amps, and modeling amps, and even computer modeling to feed into a PA. Of those, the tube amps and non-modeling solid state get almost all the play time, because I'm at a stage where I want to sound like me. I'm not looking to replicate the sound of Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton or Eddie Van Halen or Brian May; I'm looking to develop the sound of Arth. Non-modeling amps, non-artist guitars and non-clone pedals lets me pursue that goal much better.
But if modeling amps work for you - use them! Just don't think they're the only future.


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:09 am
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I think there are misconceptions on both sides of this debate, and I have to admit I'm as guilty as any at this. The fact is not all tube amp people are just buying into the hype of tube snobs. And likewise not all modeling amp people are young inexperienced guys who want an easy way to get the tones they want. I would agree with Arth that both of these tools are likely to co-exist for a very long time for very good reasons. And that is they fit the needs and disposition of the person using them because ultimately few, if any, in your audience will be able to tell the difference or care for that matter.

I'll admit I'm mostly drawn to modeling because I've always been drawn to technological innovations, and I'm certainly not intimidated by the intricacies of learning them. In fact, I take that as a personal challenge that makes me want to master them. But that's just me, and it certainly doesn't apply to everyone. However, I'll also say that I don't believe in technology just for technology sake. There ultimately has to be a real-life benefit to the application of the technology for me to buy into it, and there clearly is in the case of modeling amps.

I'm not enamoured with complicating my life with a ton of various presets. I would guess I use a range of maybe 6 to 10 different presets to be able to cover all the various tone situations I need to cover in the material we play. But likewise I do also have to point out that I've had to change the workflow of how I prepare for gigs in that I prepare my amp before each show by moving those presets around into a specific order based on the songs we'll be playing and doing a certain amount of tweeking and staging of those presets to get the benefits I want from them at showtime. I don't mind doing this, but I recognize that's not for everyone...particularly the type of folks that just want to plug in and play. But that's why we have these types of options available to us...we're all a bit different.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:46 am
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I agree. I even own a GDec 30. That's what turned me off on all this stuff. Preset in themselves are someone else's idea of what sounds good. Maybe to the person who wrote the preset. But wait, you can change the parameters! Bit you have to search and fumble through all kinds effects to get there. I think this stuff is more embraced by younger people who were brought up in the digital and computer age. On my GDec, the first thing I did was to shut off all the effects. They were horrible noise and digital artifact ridden pieces of garbage aimed at 12 year old headbangers. Then I tweaked from there. The amp models are horrible too. I know the Mustang is more technologically savy, but all the preset stuff that some engineer in a suit made up is still there. Even a lot of the modeling pedals disappeared. Remember the Hendrix Modeling pedal? I think Eddie Kramer had his hand in that one too. I believe they had a Clapton pedal too. The thing I do disagree with it that a lot of players young, old, inexperienced and experienced, really do want to take the easy way out. Especially when everything is at our fingertips today. It's not laziness. It's just inexperience.

Most of the sounds of our guitar heroes are simple but we tend to complicate them. Way back it was a Wah, Fuzzface sometimes a Echoplex and an amp, turn it up and away it goes. Just the word "preset" bugs me. It just means it's pre done for you. The biggest eye openers for me started with my 5e3 clone. I never thought I could get that many tones out of such a simple amp! Now the Marshall clone opened my eyes even further. I can get any of the sounds I heard on the albums I listened to growing up with these two amps and without pedals. I'm talking the core tone, not flanging, chorus or echo, but the raw tone of these guys with just low wattage amps with great speakers a volume and tone control. I still use pedals, but they're not really necessary. I have about fifteen or so. Some vintage, most I made myself. Three or four are fuzz boxes, a couple are overdrive tremolo with old school circuits tube driven distortion, it's fun stuff, bot not necessary.

The fact is nothing is going anywhere and with boutique builders building better and and more unique tube amps, they aren't going anywhere. Just look at the Winter NAAM videos. How many new modeling amp manufacturers are you seeing as opposed to tube amp manufacturers? You have the usual Fender, Line 6, Roland. In that realm, what amps are they modeling? Amps that already exist and are easier to use. I still have no problem with modeling amp users if that's what you like.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:52 am
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Depends on the amp and the gig.

I don't own any loud modeling amps. I have a couple small simple modeling combos (a Fender and a Vox). I regularly use the Fender, a Super Champ XD, for low-volume gigs (church band and side band doing experimental music), sometimes in conjunction with a non-modeling amp (I have used both tube amps and solid state amps in conjunction with the SC XD) if I need more volume than the SC XD can put out.

For my main, higher-volume rock band, I use tube amps in the 40W to 60W range (Sovtek, vintage Sunn, vintage Fender).

In all cases with speaker(s) onstage. Have never done just a modeling head lined to PA, although I regularly line out the SC XD combo at church in addition to using its speaker.


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