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What type amp do you take to a gig?
Non-modeling amp, Tube or SS, w/ cabinet 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
Modeling Amp w/ cabinet (Mustang and like) 27%  27%  [ 8 ]
Modeling Amp wo/ cabinet (footswitch or rack etc.) 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Non-modeling amp w/modeling pedal(s) and FX 13%  13%  [ 4 ]
Other 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 30
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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:49 pm
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While I have used modeling amps and multiple midi linked signal processors I can't say I am entirely happy with them and remain nervous of the day they will bite me.

As with all computer based magic, it is fine while ever it works but if, for what ever reason, it decides not to, you are completely stuffed.

If a phaser pedal goes south you have to put up with not using a phaser. If a signal processor, or modeling amp fails you either have a duplicate to swap in or everything that that processor provides is no loner available to you.

And there remains that whole conection that we develop with analog things - I'd like a bit more bass, turn the knob that says bass...too much...turn it back a bit. Alternatively, I find preset 16 that I use on song 4 is lacking bass. I now need to plug in the PC, load up preset 16, find the bass setting, change it to what I think will sound right, send the modified flie to the amp, decide it wasn't enough bass, but conclude it is too much hassle to change it again and put up with what you have. :-(

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:10 pm
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John Sims wrote:
While I have used modeling amps and multiple midi linked signal processors I can't say I am entirely happy with them and remain nervous of the day they will bite me.

As with all computer based magic, it is fine while ever it works but if, for what ever reason, it decides not to, you are completely stuffed.

If a phaser pedal goes south you have to put up with not using a phaser. If a signal processor, or modeling amp fails you either have a duplicate to swap in or everything that that processor provides is no loner available to you.

And there remains that whole conection that we develop with analog things - I'd like a bit more bass, turn the knob that says bass...too much...turn it back a bit. Alternatively, I find preset 16 that I use on song 4 is lacking bass. I now need to plug in the PC, load up preset 16, find the bass setting, change it to what I think will sound right, send the modified flie to the amp, decide it wasn't enough bass, but conclude it is too much hassle to change it again and put up with what you have. :-(


I'm not trying to drag this thread out any more than necessary, but your premise must have been conceived way back in like 2013, or something. :D
While hooking up to a computer to do edits can be nice, it's not necessary. I know my Zoom multi-effects pedal and my Vox Valvetronix amp, inside and out. I can make any change I need at a gig or rehearsal within seconds and often do. Our other guitarist will comment on a certain tone, I bend down and make the change and we're ready to play the song. It's not rocket science. And I don't consider myself to be all that tech savvy. I make do, that's about it. I just like having the ability to use all of the tools in my cupboard, to fit the need.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:01 am
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Drew365 wrote:

I'm not trying to drag this thread out any more than necessary, but your premise must have been conceived way back in like 2013, or something. :D


Wow, you are right. And, get this, some of my gear is over 10 years old ... and some approaching 40. Unfortunately I have way too much gear to include in my signature or you would have realised this.

The tone analogy was an over simplification and with many of my signal processors I can adjust tone from the front panel. However, others are several menus deep and one has so many variables that (while you can adjust tone with a knob) some you can only navigate with a PC.

The point remains, the more reliance you place on one box the more problems it will give you if it fails...unless you have a duplicate.

And back to 2013, that must seem so long ago to some people, having played with almost every signal variation imaginable, my many rack cases sit in several corners and I have gone back to a guitar and a simple amplifier ... my favorite amp has one knob and nothing else, imagine that ... And I think I am playing better and get much greater tone than I ever did by corrupting the signal with umpteen levels of electrical pollution.

And if the amp fails I just plug into the spare.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:06 am
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John Sims wrote:
I'd like a bit more bass, turn the knob that says bass...too much...turn it back a bit.

That's exactly what I do on my Mustang amp...


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:18 am
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John Sims wrote:
Drew365 wrote:

I'm not trying to drag this thread out any more than necessary, but your premise must have been conceived way back in like 2013, or something. :D



And if the amp fails I just plug into the spare.


Well if this happens at a gig, you're probably out of luck no matter what you thought you were going to play through.
Simplicity is great!
Tube amps are greater!
Modeling amps have their strong points and can do the job!
Multi effects pedals have their strong points and can do the job!
If you're using any of the above to make music, you're okay in my book! :D

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:40 am
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Modeling Amp w/ cabinet (Mustang and like) 28% [8 ]

Modeling Amp wo/ cabinet (footswitch or rack etc.) 3% [1]

Non-modeling amp w/modeling pedal(s) and FX 10% [ 3 ]


If you add these together, the modeling combo is close to:

Non-modeling amp, Tube or SS, w/ cabinet 43% [ 12 ]

Considering modeling amps are the new kids on the block, it would appear that they are doing alright.

Perhaps, it's safe to say that tube amps are pretty much a mature technology. Modeling amps have room to grow.

I personally see a preference for both. It's sort of like having a sports car and an SUV in the driveway :)

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Last edited by Fender Strat Brat on Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:09 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:38 pm
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Not really the new kids on the block as an evolving kid on the block. Modeling technology has been around for a while. Pedals were pretty much first. Remember the Hendrix, Clapton, 65 Deluxe Reverb, I think there was a Tweed in there and the Fender Reverb modeling pedals? Kind of came and went. The Cyber Twin had tons of presets and effects. It actually sounded nice. It had a couple of preamp tubes in it, if I remember correctly. Digital modeling has been around for quite some time. The only way to make it more popular is to use great designers, quality parts,including the boards, real studio quality effects, not just stating they are and stop making them so toy like. I think there is a future in it, but more and more small tube amp companies are cropping up all the time and many serious players gravitate towards it.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:35 pm
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63supro wrote:
Not really the new kids on the block as an evolving kid on the block.


I agree with you on the concept of making better built modeling amps, and not to say that the current lineup are new kids, except for the fact that tube amps are old timers in comparison.

Hey! I'm an old timer, but I'm ready for options.

I'd like to see a tube amp with modular effects that can be not only interchangeable, but also upgradeable. I once saw something similar on a Japanese Accuphase high end preamp.

Maybe, quality modular and interchangeable speaker cabs will help reduce the dreaded tube amp weight factor.

Still, everything comes at a cost, and some of today's modeling amps are a great buy for what they are, and they are good tools for newbies and others.

PS: I once rebuilt a tubed Wurlitzer jukebox, and I own a Class A audiophile amp, so I definitely get the tube/SS thang.
And yes, I still play vinyl :wink:

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Last edited by Fender Strat Brat on Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:44 pm
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63supro wrote:
Not really the new kids on the block as an evolving kid on the block. Modeling technology has been around for a while. Pedals were pretty much first. Remember the Hendrix, Clapton, 65 Deluxe Reverb, I think there was a Tweed in there and the Fender Reverb modeling pedals? Kind of came and went. The Cyber Twin had tons of presets and effects. It actually sounded nice. It had a couple of preamp tubes in it, if I remember correctly. Digital modeling has been around for quite some time. The only way to make it more popular is to use great designers, quality parts,including the boards, real studio quality effects, not just stating they are and stop making them so toy like. I think there is a future in it, but more and more small tube amp companies are cropping up all the time and many serious players gravitate towards it.


I'd agree it's not exactly the new kid on the block anymore, but it hasn't yet reached it's full potential either. Amp modeling is no different than any other type of modeling. Modeling is just an algorithmic representation of the calculus involved in physical behaviors. The more we understand about physical behaviors, the more accurately we can model it, whether it's sound, visible light, or gravitational effects on planets and comets. It's more dependent on faster and more powerful processors and better algorithms than raw hardware to improve and is pretty much following the same evolutionary path as computer graphic modeling being used in special effect on movies and TV.

I think computer graphic modeling has come a bit farther only because the market and demand is bigger so there's more competition, but we're certainly now at least in the 3rd generation of sonic modeling and we're roughly comparable to the "Avatar" level of graphic modeling with units like the Kemper. Just as it's harder to distinguish what's real and modeled in movies, the same is going to become more and more true with sonic modeling. It's already fooling most people in double blind tests.

I do find it odd that there are still people worrying about the dependability of these systems. There's no contest at all in terms of MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) of tubes versus digital circuits and there hasn't been for decades really. In fact, in that regard tubes don't even score that well against older outdated transistor technology.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:32 am
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O.K. gang. It appears that both modeling and tube amps are chosen tools for gigging; but, what are the chances that anyone plays in a band that uses only modeling for lead, rhythm, and bass simultaneously?

If you do. Are you satisfied with the end result?

Just a thought. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:34 am
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We use only modelling amps for rhythm and lead guitars. Bass player has a Peavey solid state amp without any effects whatsoever.
And yes, we are quite satisfied ;)


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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:56 am
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ChrisH1 wrote:
John Sims wrote:
I'd like a bit more bass, turn the knob that says bass...too much...turn it back a bit.

That's exactly what I do on my Mustang amp...


I just did this too. It was so cool. I was playing with my Mustang on a 57 Deluxe Preset with some Fuzz and thought... him, could use less bass. So you know what i did... reached for the "Bass" knob and lowered it a bit. Who would have thought...

I don't really care either way what people use. I bought the thing just to plink on til I had the loot for a new amp to replace a Fender Deville that was stolen. I didn't think i'd like it as much but its the best 200 bucks i've ever spent. My only regret is not springing for the MIII. But when i do have the loot, I might just get whatever permutation of the III is out.

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:02 pm
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One thing I did see last summer was a local band who was really popular in Philadelphia in the 70's was still around and they went completely digital modeling through laptops and had electronic drums too. They sounded horrible. They were an amazing cover band way back covering Queen, Led Zeppelin, The Who, you name it. Now they play weddings and really tiny venues. It was weird. They all had the same guitars and the bass player had a version of the same thing. I'm thinking they may have been some kind of synth controller. But man it was bad. The cymbals on the drums were the worst. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:20 pm
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63supro wrote:
But man it was bad. The cymbals on the drums were the worst. :lol:


I've played the drums since 1964, and I have my original mid 60s set to my left at this moment. That includes vintage cymbals. Even though they were less popular, I bought them because of the sound rather than just the mass market. They were, however the choice of The Who, JH and The Experience, The Hollies, and others. Obviously, electronic drums for covering the original songs would seem out of place. Many classic recordings have been, and are, however, updated with a new sound for today.

Graeme Edge of The Moody Blues is credited with the first electronic drums. The short lived commercial Syndrum was in 1976. Similar drums, became more of an accessory (or toy) rather than a prime contender except for some bands like synth/pop groups. After many seminars and trials, in the beginning, I felt electronic drums missed the mark. Even when the drums improved, and they were few and far between, cymbals were off in left field. The crappy cymbal sound kept me from making the crossover.

Today, electronic drums even have my attention. The best ones are very good. As for the economy versions, well you get the idea. Everything in the chain has to be quality; unfortunately, for me at least, electronic cymbals are often the weakest performer.

Great strides have been made here though, and some are more than acceptable. Note: I said some . . . but, not many. The old argument of players versus audience holds true here (in some cases), and all the nuances one hears from a real cymbal are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to reproduce even with sampling. Real cymbals actually do change, and they generally improve over time. Dither, EQ, decay, fullness (ambience), stick sound, technique, and a whole lot more, are some of the characteristics for consideration.

I won't go so far as to say electronic drums can't be good, only that the difference is discernible. Source, playback (amp and speakers, for example), and physical senses will vary, and so the beauty of this sound is with the body of the beholder. One of the greats, Neil Peart has a history of using electronic drums/triggers (particularly Roland V-Drums), and samplers , et al. If it's good enough for him, I'm on board.

For show or the Big Band approach, standard drums seem to have a glory of their own.

Incidentally, I was recently shown some cheap cymbals that blew me away. Made in China ! :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Modeling or non modeling for gigging.
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:24 pm
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Great strides have been made here though, and some are more than acceptable. Note: I said some . . . but, not many. The old argument of players versus audience holds true here (in some cases), and all the nuances one hears from a real cymbal are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to reproduce even with sampling. Real cymbals actually do change, and they generally improve over time. Dither, EQ, decay, fullness (ambience), stick sound, technique, and a whole lot more, are some of the characteristics for consideration.

I won't go so far as to say electronic drums can't be good, only that the difference is discernible. Source, playback (amp and speakers, for example), and physical senses will vary, and so the beauty of this sound is with the body of the beholder. One of the greats, Neil Peart has a history of using electronic drums/triggers (particularly Roland V-Drums), and samplers , et al. If it's good enough for him, I'm on board.

For show or the Big Band approach, standard drums seem to have a glory of their own.

Incidentally, I was recently shown some cheap cymbals that blew me away. Made in China ! :shock:


I wasn't aware of Neil Pert's use of the Roland V-Drums, but I can understand it as that's what our drummer uses. Given the progress that's been made on the better electronic kits like the Roland V-Drums, it's getting harder and harder to justify acoustic kits given how hard (and expensive) they are to get blended in with the rest of the instruments with something close to a studio sound when you can pretty much do it out of the box with an e-kit.

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