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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:04 am
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arth1 wrote:
tvr1979 wrote:
It's just that when I'm inspecting my guitars and admiring the beauty and workmanship of all their components, the pickups seem to require the least amount of workmanship, resources and basic skill to produce.

If that were the case, far more guitar builders would make their own pickups. Even people who solder their own electronics and pots tend to leave pickups to the pros.



I would debate that comment as it seems more likely that in this case, it's probably more about manufacturing than specific issues regarding workmanship, craftsmanship or "leaving it to the pros". From a manufacturing view point, consider tuners for example - even in the case of high quality sealed tuners, we're not talking about a terribly sophisticated device...a cast housing, a couple of gears, some nickle or chrome plating...hoo-ha. The concept of "gears" isn't anything new...it's been around hundreds of years, going back well beyond the great Leonardo da Vinci. Yet the greatest majority of instrument manufacturers outsource. From a business standpoint, it simply makes more sense to outsource such parts to companies such as Schaller, Ping, Gotoh, etc., as apposed to a given guitar manufacturer setting up facilities of their own to produce these same parts...and I strongly suspect the same is true of pickups as well. Now if we were to apply this to the home builder...seriously...how many people really have a clue how to cast those tuners housings? How many folks have home access to the equipment for doing nickle or chrome plating???

One of the problems with your analogy is that you seem to try and compare the issues involved with a specialized, often mass produced product to those specifically regarding craftsmanship....and one isn't necessarily or specifically indicative of the other. Even in the world of large guitar manufacturers, which is COMPLETELY different from the average home builder, a great many of those companies will outsource the production of various items....and a great many of these companies would certainly constitute "pros". Let's consider for a moment....

From a business standpoint, a given company needs to evaluate the cost/benefit ratio of making such parts themselves. From a manufacturing point of view, making pickups isn't really THAT hard. While I disagree with Fly Whitlock in that yes, there is some degree of science involved (although not rocket science by any means), I do agree with him that there isn't any magic there either, regardless of the maker. Wire type, magnet type, wire gauge, number of turns, impedance...it's a pretty well established formula at this point. From a manufacturing point of view, there is equipment out there that can accurately wind pickups with a high degree of accuracy and consistency. Quality Control has come a long way over the years...today "pickup #7" from a given batch is likely to be pretty equivalent to "pickup #3624" from that same batch. Once you move past the R&D phase (and now a days, how much of that is just copied from vintage pickups anyways?), it's really a matter of sitting someone down, loading the bobbin, threading the bobbin, entering a number on the machine (regarding number of turns) and pressing "Go". Obviously a little more goes into it than that, but like my recent comments about guitar bodies and such, in a mass production environment, it's not like there's some ethereal hand guiding the creation of each and every pickup that comes off an assembly line where thousands, if not tens of thousands are made regularly.

That said, also when looked at from a manufacturing point of view, a company also has to deal with costs regarding equipment and supplies, labor, upkeep & repair, inventory, overhead, yadda, yadda, yadda. While issues such as "quality" are often a factor, the predominant consideration is simply that of corporate mentality which always demands the question, "Can it be done less expensive with greater profit?". It's a business, plain and simple and the outsourcing of parts is a very common practice in many industries.

I would also suggest that this answers directly to the issues discussed here regarding price points as well. Again we're talking about businesses here...Economics 101 - Supply and Demand. For large, dare I say "global" companies, who buy things like pickups in MASS quantities at wholesale pricing (because the company that makes those pickups also mass produces them and buys the parts...bobbins, wires, magnets, etc., at wholesale), the price of any individual pickup is considerably lower. For small companies who produce a boutique, individual, hand made item, chances are they're gonna charge top dollar. In the case of pickups, where you have companies such as Duncan and DiMazio that are somewhere in between, said prices are likely to be in between rock bottom wholesale and top dollar custom...which they typically are...again, not really rocket science there.

Now as far as individual builders go...those folks who solder their own pots and such, I still have to disagree...for many of the same reasons as mentioned above. The primary flaw with your analogy is simply the availability of parts and resources. ANYONE can walk into Radio Shack and buy a soldering iron and a spool of solder...the same can NOT be said of getting supplies to make your own pickups.

First, let's consider supplies - again it's not like you can walk into Radio Shack and buy pickup wire off the shelf. Yes, it -IS- available, but it's not generally easy to obtain for the average guitar DIY person. Same goes for bobbins and magnets - thru the glory of the internet, such things can be found, however, it's not like you can just walk into Home Depot and buy a box of such items the way you can with nails and screws and such. This goes double for the tooling involved...at the very least you need to have a way to mount a drill (or a drill press), then you need a jig of some kind to hold the bobbin. Professional pickup winders are after all, rather specialized equipment...while many people may have a common drill at home, it's not like the average person has a Bridgeport sitting in their garage, and like a Bridgeport, a pickup winder isn't really something the DIY'er can easily buy for under $100. For best results, I suspect most folks also need some way to count the number of turns on the bobbin...these days it seems most folks can't count past 17 (I blame Twitter)...keeping a couple of thousand turns in your head requires a rather fair degree of concentration! LOL! Seriously - how does the home builder put together something like that? Comparing such things to a production environment is quite frankly like comparing tomatoes to carburetors.

That said, I do strongly believe that if such things were easily and readily available and were fairly affordable, I STRONGLY suspect that a great many more of us would indeed turn our own pickups. I know I would LOVE to give this a try...it would be fun to experiment with different wire and materials, different windings, etc., just to see what kind of sounds they could produce. For example, while ceramic and various incarnations of Alnico are common materials for use in pickups, I've often wondered how a raw Hematite might sound. How would wire made from something other than copper sound? I won't speak for others here, but for myself at least, it has NOTHING to do with any notion of "leaving it to the pros" as much as the lack of availability regarding affordable resources.

Just something to think about.....


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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:37 am
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The supplies are readily available on ebay. As to a winder I'm about $20 in and I'm 90% of the way there. 1 sewing machine motor. Some scrap lumber. A pulley. A window open sensor. A $1 calculator. Just need to add in the guide.


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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:38 pm
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lomitus wrote:
ANYONE can walk into Radio Shack and buy a soldering iron and a spool of solder...

I take it it's been a few years since you've been to a Radio Shack?
Today, they sell pre-paid cell phone plans, day-glo cell phone covers and lanyards with cute Chinese kittens. Then there are children's toys with embedded batteries that you're supposed to toss and replace when the battery gives out. If lucky you might even find glitter nail polish. But something as simple as a Weber and .020 60/40 solder is something they have to order.


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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:13 pm
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arth1 wrote:
lomitus wrote:
ANYONE can walk into Radio Shack and buy a soldering iron and a spool of solder...

I take it it's been a few years since you've been to a Radio Shack?
Today, they sell pre-paid cell phone plans, day-glo cell phone covers and lanyards with cute Chinese kittens. Then there are children's toys with embedded batteries that you're supposed to toss and replace when the battery gives out. If lucky you might even find glitter nail polish. But something as simple as a Weber and .020 60/40 solder is something they have to order.


Years? No...not at all. Just a few weeks actually (the week just before Xmas). Not only had to get some solder for one of my project Strats, I also needed some thermal compound as the mounts for the cooling fan on my PC's cpu broke and I had to remount it.

I can't speak to where you live...maybe you just have an outlet or satellite store that simply caters to the locals or maybe you were just distracted by the glitter nail polish and didn't walk all the way into the store, but the 3 Radio Shacks in my area here in Northern Ohio do still carry soldering irons of various wattage (Radio Shack brand, not Weber), solder and even stuff like pots, jacks, misc caps & resistors, coils, bulk speaker and mic cable, some tools & testing supplies, etc., etc.. In fact my local store actually has a pretty good selection of such stuff (although nothing like Olson's used to have in the old days). And yes, there was PLENTY of solder on the shelf. No...I can't speak as to what they have in stock THIS WEEK and I do agree they'll usually try to shove a cell phone down your throat as you're checking out (although around here it's usually a 2 year plan with a free phone and NOT pre-payed), but as of a few weeks back when I went in to buy some solder and some thermal compound (which yes, they also had in stock...$8 a freakin tube), YES, all that stuff was still available on the shelves.

While I did have to get the new fan screws at Home Depot ($.99 for a pack of 4), I didn't really pay attention to the day glow Chinese kittens since that wasn't what I was shopping for.


With that, if you're honestly looking for glitter nail polish at Radio Shack...sorry dude, you're on your own :shock: .


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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:42 pm
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lomitus- it sounded like you agreed more with me than disagreed. Typo? Anyway I didn't catch the disagree part. Either way it's quite okay to disagree- I was just wondering? Maybe I can clear up what I was saying etc... okay very good post though.


The one guy wanted to know about my designing pickups- Before my friend at work passed away ( a scientist) we were discussing a way to use the probes we made at our company for pick up applications. He purchased magnets at Radio Shack ( or somewhere) to begin testing the fields and related questions having to do with converting signals etc. He had the magnets and a probe set up and was running some peliminary tests. He was very curious about it. But he passed suddenly and no one else could help me. So there are all kinds of ways to design and R/D things. Having the right people who have already had the experience with the things to be designed is a big plus. "Idea Guys" are out there. Finding the right people and applying what they know to get a job done--- well I think that is kind of common--


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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:34 pm
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Fly Whitlock wrote:
The one guy wanted to know about my designing pickups- Before my friend at work passed away ( a scientist) we were discussing a way to use the probes we made at our company for pick up applications. He purchased magnets at Radio Shack ( or somewhere) to begin testing the fields and related questions having to do with converting signals etc. He had the magnets and a probe set up and was running some peliminary tests. He was very curious about it. But he passed suddenly and no one else could help me. So there are all kinds of ways to design and R/D things. Having the right people who have already had the experience with the things to be designed is a big plus. "Idea Guys" are out there. Finding the right people and applying what they know to get a job done--- well I think that is kind of common--


I am very sorry about your friend.

However, I think the point was that there is a difference between slapping something together that nominally works, and being able to design something that not only works, but works well and does what you expect it to do. The latter takes a much deeper understanding of the problem.

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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:31 pm
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Fly Whitlock wrote:
lomitus- it sounded like you agreed more with me than disagreed. Typo? Anyway I didn't catch the disagree part. Either way it's quite okay to disagree- I was just wondering? Maybe I can clear up what I was saying etc... okay very good post though.


The one guy wanted to know about my designing pickups- Before my friend at work passed away ( a scientist) we were discussing a way to use the probes we made at our company for pick up applications. He purchased magnets at Radio Shack ( or somewhere) to begin testing the fields and related questions having to do with converting signals etc. He had the magnets and a probe set up and was running some peliminary tests. He was very curious about it. But he passed suddenly and no one else could help me. So there are all kinds of ways to design and R/D things. Having the right people who have already had the experience with the things to be designed is a big plus. "Idea Guys" are out there. Finding the right people and applying what they know to get a job done--- well I think that is kind of common--

First of all sorry about your friend. As for you answering my question, well good job, I guess winding pickups is not all that hard. What must be hard is winding a great sounding pickup

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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:34 pm
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spacewolf wrote:
Fly Whitlock wrote:
The one guy wanted to know about my designing pickups- Before my friend at work passed away ( a scientist) we were discussing a way to use the probes we made at our company for pick up applications. He purchased magnets at Radio Shack ( or somewhere) to begin testing the fields and related questions having to do with converting signals etc. He had the magnets and a probe set up and was running some peliminary tests. He was very curious about it. But he passed suddenly and no one else could help me. So there are all kinds of ways to design and R/D things. Having the right people who have already had the experience with the things to be designed is a big plus. "Idea Guys" are out there. Finding the right people and applying what they know to get a job done--- well I think that is kind of common--


I am very sorry about your friend.

However, I think the point was that there is a difference between slapping something together that nominally works, and being able to design something that not only works, but works well and does what you expect it to do. The latter takes a much deeper understanding of the problem.

Exactly. I can probably find all the information I need online to build my own amp. Now could I build a great sounding amp by just reading something off the web? No way in hell, but I sure could build some amp-like object!

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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:03 pm
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Quote:
Exactly. I can probably find all the information I need online to build my own amp. Now could I build a great sounding amp by just reading something off the web? No way in hell, but I sure could build some amp-like object!


Ok...I think this is a good example. Let's say someone were interested in building their own amp. Let's also assume that while said person isn't an "engineer" by any stretch of the imagination, that said person does know how to use a soldering iron and knows the difference between a capacitor and a resistor and can likely understand a basic schematic.

Now, let's say that said person downloads...ohh...let's say the schematics for an early 60's Fender Bandmaster, as well as the point to point wiring diagram (both of which can be found on the internet). Maybe even said person has gone out and purchased a copy of Aspin Pittman's "Tube Amp Book" and that said person has even gone to the trouble of acquiring the parts...caps, coils, resisters, pots, tube sockets, etc.. Is it really so unreasonable to assume that said person could in fact build a good, if not great sounding amp? Is this not analogous to a "recipe"...follow the recipe and you should get predictable results?

Consider this; Those very early Fender amps, such as the 400's and such that are soooooo highly prized...did Leo Fender himself not get those "designs" from the RCA leaflets that came with the tubes?

Now to apply this to the conversation, I think the more or less general consensus here is that winding pickups is actually pretty easy...the prevailing question seems to be that of winding a "great sounding pickup". Now issues regarding perception and personal taste aside for the moment, let's assume that a '57 Strat pickup is the proverbial "holy grail" of sound in this matter. In theory, could a person not acquire a vintage '57 Strat pickup and examine it? Measure the wire thickness, count the number of turns on the bobbin, etc., etc., and then, IN THEORY, acquire those same parts and rewind a brand new one in the same manor? Certainly there would be SOME difference in the sound due to the age of the parts, but in theory the resulting pickup should in fact sound close to how the genuine '57 did when it was new.

Is that not essentially what "R&D" departments do when they are trying to create replicas or re-issues of a given vintage or era? If so, I'm not sure I can understand what's sooooooo terribly complicated about this as to suggest it's some kind of rocket science or something best left to the pros, let alone "magic" as some seem to insinuate. Use the same parts, assemble them in the same way - you should get equivalent results. What's the big deal??



Now for the sake of clarity here, my comments regarding my desire to use unconventional materials and such were aimed at creating "new" sounds...whether or not those sounds would be considered "great" is HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE. I honestly do not know...but if I had the tools and materials more readily available, I think it would be a hell of a lot of fun to find out! -IF- I had the parts more readily available and/or had the facilities to machine them myself...yea, I would very likely be making my own (and I suspect many others would as well). Would they sound "great"? How will they sound in 50 years or so? Did those early transducers back in the 30's and 40's sound "great"? Do they still? Who's to say...

Perhaps the single point (or most important point) of my rather lengthy narration(s) here is to simply dis-spell some of the myth that people seem to associate or try to attach to all of this. Whether it's guitars, amps or pickups, maybe it just gives some people comfort to think there's something ethereal about all of this...because they don't understand it, there must be some sort of voodoo involved. Perhaps it's just that I do have a fair knowledge of guitar building, as well as stuff like electronics. Either way, I really don't think that most of this stuff is nearly as complicated as some people try to make it. To me that quote above illustrates the mis-conception...as it refers to building a "great sounding amp", it suggests that there is something other than the parts and knowledge that goes into all of this. If a given person has schematics, information, a bit of skill and is able to obtain the parts and such, -why- should this equal "no way in hell"? That just doesn't make sense.....


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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:39 pm
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lomitus wrote:
Ok...I think this is a good example. Let's say someone were interested...
[Shortened for brevity.]

The OP was talking about pickups designed by companies that manufacture and sell them. What you are talking about is simply copying someone else's work - sure, almost anyone with enough know-how and tools can do that. But can you design a new pickup and make it work the way you want it to, one that is novel enough to give you a competitive advantage? Can you design a new amp, that will sound novel enough to give you a competitive advantage and work reliably, as opposed to just copying someone else's design? Again, designing takes real expertise.

I take my hat off to those of you devoted enough to wind your own pickups and build your own amps. But the question is about designing something new, not copying what has already been done.

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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:43 pm
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Aren't there also some materials that are hard to come by, or have to be substituted now due to some regulation? Like the materials used in the old Fender "mudbuckers"? Maybe I'm not remember that correctly, but I could have sworn there was something about those old 70's humbuckers that made them not easily repro'd now. That the modern production run repros had to sub in other materials, or something. That doesn't seem like you could just get some "easily sourced materials" and slap it together. I don't like the modern spec'd stuff so I can't speak to that, but it would seem that if vintage spec materials were so easily gotten then they'd be more in line with the mainstream modern designs in terms of price. (novelty mark up aside)

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Post subject: Re: Question about pickups
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:29 pm
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spacewolf wrote:
lomitus wrote:
Ok...I think this is a good example. Let's say someone were interested...
[Shortened for brevity.]

The OP was talking about pickups designed by companies that manufacture and sell them. What you are talking about is simply copying someone else's work - sure, almost anyone with enough know-how and tools can do that. But can you design a new pickup and make it work the way you want it to, one that is novel enough to give you a competitive advantage? Can you design a new amp, that will sound novel enough to give you a competitive advantage and work reliably, as opposed to just copying someone else's design? Again, designing takes real expertise.

I take my hat off to those of you devoted enough to wind your own pickups and build your own amps. But the question is about designing something new, not copying what has already been done.

Thank you. This is exactly my point. Yes, just about anyone can "copy and paste" someone else's design. Now can you build your own design and be competitive enough to tackle on the Giants?

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