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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:51 am
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So the question remains, does GT test every tube or 10% of them. This is a big difference and since they are a large vendor, it would be good to know the true answer. I don't have it, myself.

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:13 pm
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Drew365 wrote:
So the question remains, does GT test every tube or 10% of them. This is a big difference and since they are a large vendor, it would be good to know the true answer. I don't have it, myself.



I would find it hard to believe that they test them all. The prices would likely be much higher if they did. That's a lot of labor. I mean, in theory they could depending on how they order them from their supplier. If they order them in bulk and do their own packaging then they could. In that instance they would be touching every tube anyhow. So then it would be a question of time, and how much it takes to keep a line validated and how much money in test equipment. I'm more inclined to believe that they'd do sampling. This keeps the suppliers on their toes as there can be SEVERE ramifications for not living up to terms agreed to in a contract. Which basically ensures that the supplier sends their best product to GT, and that also means that what gets pushed off to other vendors might be substandard. So saving a few bucks might not be the best way to buy tubes.

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:09 pm
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Lightnin MN wrote:
...Lately, in a series of threads, from a variety of forums, you seem to be singly opposing/contradicting whatever I post. :shock:

What's up with that..?? :(


Here's another one for you: BS. :lol: That is not true either, show me what you are talking about. The last post of yours that I responded to was to simply ask your thinking about not using the standby switch with amps like the DRRI, you didn't answer except to say that you didn't want to argue, I didn't respond at all after that. In fact, after considering what you said, it made sense to me and I have been trying it myself, not using the standby for my DRRI. So far, so good, and no more popping noise.

Lightnin MN wrote:
...Show me any evidence, other than Groove Tubes marketing hype, that Groove Tubes goes beyond simply repackaging and distributing tubes manufactured by others on a consistent basis...


That's easy! Look at the current draw rating on the label on each and every output tube that GT tests and labels. GT uses numbers from 1 to 10 to indicate the current draw, and I have observed over the years that these numbers are very consistent, and without exception, have fallen into the same small window of current draw. Add to that, I have never, repeat never, gotten an output tube from GT that has been a dud or that has been out of spec, nor have I seen any GT output tube fail to perform as advertised (I have had a very few GT preamp tubes fail right out of the box). Everyone has some duds, but it is very evident to me and others that GT has far fewer, due to their rigorous testing. I would say that Mesa Boogie is right up there with GT using their own testing procedures also.

Practically all tube vendors rate their output tubes for current draw, using the "Ip" as shown on their own tube testers, and most also give the Gm rating also. Eurotubes for one, gives a lot of info about their testing procedures (even showing pictures of the racks full of tubes being tested), while GT only talks about their testing rig, but do not give much detail. What are the odds that GT can be so consistent if they only sample 10% of their tubes? Astronomical?? :shock:

:lol: and :roll: to you on this one.

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:02 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
Lightnin MN wrote:
...Lately, in a series of threads, from a variety of forums, you seem to be singly opposing/contradicting whatever I post. :shock:

What's up with that..?? :(


Here's another one for you: BS. :lol: That is not true either, show me what you are talking about. The last post of yours that I responded to was to simply ask your thinking about not using the standby switch with amps like the DRRI, you didn't answer except to say that you didn't want to argue, I didn't respond at all after that. In fact, after considering what you said, it made sense to me and I have been trying it myself, not using the standby for my DRRI. So far, so good, and no more popping noise.

Lightnin MN wrote:
...Show me any evidence, other than Groove Tubes marketing hype, that Groove Tubes goes beyond simply repackaging and distributing tubes manufactured by others on a consistent basis...


That's easy! Look at the current draw rating on the label on each and every output tube that GT tests and labels. GT uses numbers from 1 to 10 to indicate the current draw, and I have observed over the years that these numbers are very consistent, and without exception, have fallen into the same small window of current draw. Add to that, I have never, repeat never, gotten an output tube from GT that has been a dud or that has been out of spec, nor have I seen any GT output tube fail to perform as advertised (I have had a very few GT preamp tubes fail right out of the box). Everyone has some duds, but it is very evident to me and others that GT has far fewer, due to their rigorous testing. I would say that Mesa Boogie is right up there with GT using their own testing procedures also.

Practically all tube vendors rate their output tubes for current draw, using the "Ip" as shown on their own tube testers, and most also give the Gm rating also. Eurotubes for one, gives a lot of info about their testing procedures (even showing pictures of the racks full of tubes being tested), while GT only talks about their testing rig, but do not give much detail. What are the odds that GT can be so consistent if they only sample 10% of their tubes? Astronomical?? :shock:

:lol: and :roll: to you on this one.


It's not my goal to convince you or anyone else. Tube vendor arguments to musicians are like Motor Oil arguments to Car Guys.

But, GT Tubes does not test every tube they sell, and those who do such as TAD or Upscale Audio, charge a fortune to provide this value-added service.

I have used Groove Tube tubes in the past w/ mixed results. But, even their tubes which were acceptable were still only that, fine, OK but nothing spectacular.

Also, you have to consider the application. Some amps, like Peaveys for instance, are biased so cold that superior power-handling claimed by GT is pretty much moot.

Of the 6 amps I own, 4 are Vintage Blackface or early Silverface amps, and I run NOS Vintage tubes in these. The GTs sound horrible by comparison. But, I'm sitting on such a hoard of NOS tubes that I won't live long enough to exhaust my supply. My modern amps, a Peavey and a Class A 5-watter won't benefit from anything better than off-the-shelf, so price will be my main factor.

Also, you need to realize that Groove Tubes of today is far from the company it was when Aspen ran it pre-Fender buyout. Fender has pretty much gutted the company, sold off much of the equipment and a large portion of the excellent workforce GT had assembled has left, either through attrition or forced lay-offs. The Brain Trust which once existed is now pretty much gone, and that can only mean a slip in quality.

As I mentioned, GT gets mixed reviews in general. If you check out this Gear Page Forum, you may be surprised at some of the comments.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:20 am
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I appreciate the link, however, it's just more people's unsubstantiated opinions, spouting off if you will. I'll stick with what I know, and GT are great tubes in my book. YMMV, and that is OK with me also. 8)

In case anyone is interested.

http://www.groovetubes.com/about/

http://wpc.077d.edgecastcdn.net/00077D/groovetubes/pdf/Groove_Tubes_Process_Presentation_no_BB.pdf

Yeah, try to imagine that they only burn in 10% of their tubes, and the others are just thrown out there and hope for the best. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:30 pm
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As far as preamp tubes go, I'm with Lightnin MN on this one. I use NOS. There's no comparison between modern and NOS to sway me from that.

I've been ok with using modern power tubes however. I just swapped a pair of GT (Sovtek 5881) with a pair of vintage JAN Tung Sol 5881s in my Ampeg, and to be honest, I can't say I notice much of a difference if at all.

But I can change the whole dynamic of the amplifier with one V1 preamp tube swap.

For years I have bought Mesa power tubes for their reliability and color code system. It's nice to have an amp biased to where you like it and be able to plug and play when the time comes.

I have a more difficult time noticing sound differences in 6l6 types than I do EL34 and EL84 types. The Gold Lion KTs I put in the Hughes and Kettner Triamp were like WOW!! Very noticeable in sound and bold attack. EL84s in my Delta can provide very noticeable differences as well. But throughout all of my 6l6 amps I've owned, differences seemed more noticeable in response (bold, spongy, cloudy, etc) than sound. That's been my experiences anyway.

The GTs sound fine in my Ampeg btw. I'm still keeping them for down the road when the Tung Sols run their course and I'll let them run their course as well.

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:40 pm
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That's pretty much the jist of it. The preamp is where the tone is first shaped and has the most impact on tone, and the output section mainly just amplifies the preamp signal. The most notable difference with various output tubes will be mainly when the amp is really cranked. As you've noted, using the right current rating on output tubes, as well as the gain factor of the PI, can get you the response desired from the output section.

Although I have a decent stash of NOS tubes, I have never really found them to be any better than modern tubes, at least as far as tone is concerned. Many of the most desirable NOS tubes, like RCA, GE, Mullard, Ei, Siemens, Sylvania, etc (I have these and more), sound fairly neutral to me and don't have as much character as many modern made tubes. No accounting for taste, right?. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:42 pm
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It may sound a little crazy, but I think it helps to know what characteristics are more prevalent with the different brands as to have a plan for how to tailor a preamp to react to how you want it to sound.

US made NOS pre tubes tend to be darker and rich in bass. Tubes like Amperex, Matsushita and Valvo tend to have a high end sizzle.

If you put a US made tube in V1, it may restrict the sizzle of a Euro made tube stacked behind it. And it can result in an undesirable mud.

With a Euro made tube in V1 and a US made tube stacked behind it, you'll get a more desirable sound.

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:31 am
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Guitarists are funny. Throw a set of "2"s in a bass amp and turn it up to 5. You'll see exactly how much it matters and it has nothing to do with being "cranked". It really won't matter how good your pre amp tube is at that point. Also, if you don't understand Quality Systems in a regulated industry, and how bad a CAPA can go for a company then you probably wouldn't understand sampling and how it puts the burden of the labor of quality control on a supplier instead of the vendor. It's about shifting labor cost, benefits, and leverage. It's worth increasing your cost at the supplier a few pennies per unit, and having actionable leverage in court rather than keeping on dozens of employees who you have to pay benefits for. GT may indeed test every tube. If they touch every tube then it makes sense. However, if you believe that sampling is about "throwing the rest out there and hoping for the best" you're not getting it. The sampling isn't done to ensure the product quality for sale. The sampling would be done to ensure that the supplier is ensuring the product quality on their end. If it's found to be lacking then the company has leverage and recourse. Not just stuck with a bunch of garbage they paid for. Which is why it would be done before the material ever went in to stock to be built with.

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:21 am
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Shimmilou, what tube would you recommend that I buy for my Roc-Pro 700 then ? As you know , it is a SS / tube hybrid which uses a 12AX7 / ECC83 . I am leary of getting another JJ after my experience with this one, so I want something that'll put some boost in the amp but at the same time, be long lasting as well. I'm a noob as far as tubes are concerned so any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated.


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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:31 am
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I've never actually heard one of those amps. But if it has a bright Fender sound, I would personally stay away from a bright 12ax7. It can magnify the highs into shrill territory.

A while back I had a Marshall 8100 hybrid. My favorites for that were NOS 7025s. Keeps the noise down but has a big flavor to it. RCA or Tung Sol (NOS) 7025 really sounded great in that amp.

Of the modern ones, Sovtek LPS.

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:19 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
Guitarists are funny. Throw a set of "2"s in a bass amp and turn it up to 5. You'll see exactly how much it matters and it has nothing to do with being "cranked". It really won't matter how good your pre amp tube is at that point...


Guitar players WILL probably be talking about guitar amps. And in that realm, the preamp always matters. Always.

If I put a Matsuhhita in my Ampeg V1, whether cranked or not, there will be a noticeable brightness. If I put a Sylvania or GE, it will be noticeably darker. Clean, cranked, distorted, power distorted, whatever the case may be, that will ALWAYS be the case.

I'm not saying that won't be the case with different power tubes as well. The two sections work together to create the sound of the amp. But I can't agree with a statement of "It won't matter what's in your preamp". It always matters what's in your preamp.

I'm not as familiar with Bass amps. I do have an Alembic F-1X preamp. But I've yet to run it through a power amp and speakers. It's used mainly as a direct recording amp. Obviously, there's only one way I can change the dynamic of that setup. And as sure as the Sun rises, it will change if I swap that preamp tube with a brighter one (currently using a Telefunken).

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:09 am
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Play nice guys. :lol: Shimmy is a huge fan of GT's and you won't convince him of anything different. Don't waste your breath arguing. He's a giant fan of the HRDlx too. I've had many heated discussions with him. It's no biggie. Just agree to disagree.
Personally, I never had any luck with GT's. First, I never liked the way they sounded when I pushed them, second, I had too many power tube failures and tube rattle. I pretty much use JJ's or NOS. I like the way they sound and so far I've never had a problem with them in any of my builds. A lot of it has to do with where you bias them. If you run them cold, they last forever, but sound like arse, run them hot and if the tube isn't robust, it tanks. All my builds so far are cathode biased and sound great with JJ's. What it comes down to is use what you like. I'm done with arguing over stuff. Yeah, I thing GT's are nothing but hype. After building a few amps, I now see that there are a lot of variables to tone, not just what tubes you run. You have everything from transformers which is a huge part of your tone all the way to coupling caps and the type of resistors you use. Tubes are an important part of your tone, but if an amp uses lousy components, it will never sound good regardless of what tubes you run. The best thing I ever did was start building my own amps. Now, I'm not a slave to shoddy shortcut assembly techniques, cheap boards and components, Pressboard cabs and cheap speakers.

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:35 am
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63supro wrote:
Play nice guys. :lol: Shimmy is a huge fan of GT's and you won't convince him of anything different. Don't waste your breath arguing. He's a giant fan of the HRDlx too. I've had many heated discussions with him. It's no biggie. Just agree to disagree.
Personally, I never had any luck with GT's. First, I never liked the way they sounded when I pushed them, second, I had too many power tube failures and tube rattle. I pretty much use JJ's or NOS. I like the way they sound and so far I've never had a problem with them in any of my builds. A lot of it has to do with where you bias them. If you run them cold, they last forever, but sound like arse, run them hot and if the tube isn't robust, it tanks. All my builds so far are cathode biased and sound great with JJ's. What it comes down to is use what you like. I'm done with arguing over stuff. Yeah, I thing GT's are nothing but hype. After building a few amps, I now see that there are a lot of variables to tone, not just what tubes you run. You have everything from transformers which is a huge part of your tone all the way to coupling caps and the type of resistors you use. Tubes are an important part of your tone, but if an amp uses lousy components, it will never sound good regardless of what tubes you run. The best thing I ever did was start building my own amps. Now, I'm not a slave to shoddy shortcut assembly techniques, cheap boards and components, Pressboard cabs and cheap speakers.


100% agreement here... :D :D

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: I Think I'll Be Using Only Fender Tubes From Now On.
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:05 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
63supro wrote:
Play nice guys. :lol: Shimmy is a huge fan of GT's and you won't convince him of anything different. Don't waste your breath arguing. He's a giant fan of the HRDlx too. I've had many heated discussions with him. It's no biggie. Just agree to disagree.
Personally, I never had any luck with GT's. First, I never liked the way they sounded when I pushed them, second, I had too many power tube failures and tube rattle. I pretty much use JJ's or NOS. I like the way they sound and so far I've never had a problem with them in any of my builds. A lot of it has to do with where you bias them. If you run them cold, they last forever, but sound like arse, run them hot and if the tube isn't robust, it tanks. All my builds so far are cathode biased and sound great with JJ's. What it comes down to is use what you like. I'm done with arguing over stuff. Yeah, I thing GT's are nothing but hype. After building a few amps, I now see that there are a lot of variables to tone, not just what tubes you run. You have everything from transformers which is a huge part of your tone all the way to coupling caps and the type of resistors you use. Tubes are an important part of your tone, but if an amp uses lousy components, it will never sound good regardless of what tubes you run. The best thing I ever did was start building my own amps. Now, I'm not a slave to shoddy shortcut assembly techniques, cheap boards and components, Pressboard cabs and cheap speakers.


100% agreement here... :D :D

cheers!


Lightnin, Don't take it personally buddy. Shimmy means well, but when he likes something, seems like he"ll defend it to the last breath. He's a good guy and very knowledgeable, but like most of us, really opinionated. :wink:
I still think GT's are nothing more than hype, just like gold pin and cryogenic tubes. I play what I like and sounds good to me. First and foremost it must be reliable. For me, GT's fell flat on that one. If you bias GT's cold, they'll last forever, when I pushed mine a little warmer they failed, and not just on one occurrence. If your pockets are deep enough, NOS is pretty much the way to go. Those old tubes were military spec and had to be reliable under extreme conditions. The military no longer uses them at least to my knowledge, so now they're not as reliable. My last build had mil spec 1% tolerance resistors. I check every component before I install it and they were pretty much dead nuts every time or at least well within the 1% tolerance.
IMO, good parts make good tone. In my recent build, I used F&T electrolytic caps, Mallory coupling caps, Dale and Ohmite resistors, Classic Tone Trannies made in the U.S. and I have a set of JJ's in it now and the tone is awesome. You look at high production amps now and they're full of imported, cheap components and ribbon connectors. Think that crap helps your tone? :wink:

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