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Post subject: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:23 am
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What am I missing ? I am trying to learn the piano coda from Layla on the guitar. It was written and played in C#. So I have run into the following question.

The C# major scale includes a #E and #B. Yet there is no such thing as a #E and #B given the half step between BC and EF.

Any one that's good with theory please clarify.

Thanks

OL

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:37 am
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This might help:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/57045448/Layla-Piano-Coda

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:46 pm
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oneal lane wrote:
What am I missing ? I am trying to learn the piano coda from Layla on the guitar. It was written and played in C#. So I have run into the following question.

The C# major scale includes a #E and #B. Yet there is no such thing as a #E and #B given the half step between BC and EF.

Any one that's good with theory please clarify.

Thanks

OL


Things get silly sometimes. E# is an F and B# is a C.

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:53 pm
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oneal lane wrote:
What am I missing ? I am trying to learn the piano coda from Layla on the guitar. It was written and played in C#. So I have run into the following question.

The C# major scale includes a #E and #B. Yet there is no such thing as a #E and #B given the half step between BC and EF.

Any one that's good with theory please clarify.

Thanks

OL


Hi ! It's been years since I've been playing from the sheets, so I'm no expert . But this ,to me, sounds like kinda BS. This has to be some computer generated note-writing. I don't think it is proper to write it that way at all! This might clarify it - how the C# major scale goes :-)

C#/Db: C#, D#, F, F#, G#, A#, C, C#

PS - just saw Modwiz' explanation - great !

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:58 pm
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If I remember correctly, if you are going "up" the scale, E, F, F# G...down, G, Gb, F, E...

up the scale is #, down the scale is b (flat)...ask a real musician if that is the proper "convention"...lol

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:33 pm
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OK,

I broke down and called a piano instructor friend of mine. Although the scale is written C#D#E#F#G#A#B#, in actuality B# is played as C natural and E# is played as F natural to make things work. Just one of those oddities I guess.

Modwiz you were correct.

Thanks all.

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:38 pm
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oneal lane wrote:
The C# major scale includes a #E and #B. Yet there is no such thing as a #E and #B given the half step between BC and EF.

Actually there is indeed E# and B# and you have just stumbled upon the reason.

C# Major scale:
C♯, D♯, E♯, F♯, G♯, A♯, and B♯

You can't have C and F in this scale, because you already have C# and F#. Consider how sloppy the notation would get if you had to put a natural symbol next to every 'C' and then use a sharp symbol every time a C# comes up after the natural. It would kind of defeat the purpose of having a key signature.

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:56 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
You can't have C and F in this scale, because you already have C# and F#. Consider how sloppy the notation would get if you had to put a natural symbol next to every 'C' and then use a sharp symbol every time a C# comes up after the natural. It would kind of defeat the purpose of having a key signature.


Makes sense :idea:

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:04 pm
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I think this is due to the physics of sound etc. and not just convention.

It would take more study.

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:06 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
oneal lane wrote:
The C# major scale includes a #E and #B. Yet there is no such thing as a #E and #B given the half step between BC and EF.

Actually there is indeed E# and B# and you have just stumbled upon the reason.

C# Major scale:
C♯, D♯, E♯, F♯, G♯, A♯, and B♯

You can't have C and F in this scale, because you already have C# and F#. Consider how sloppy the notation would get if you had to put a natural symbol next to every 'C' and then use a sharp symbol every time a C# comes up after the natural. It would kind of defeat the purpose of having a key signature.


Thank you for elucidating this. It helps conceptually. I just wanted him to know where the note was. A rose by any name...........

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:43 pm
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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:27 am
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modwiz wrote:
Things get silly sometimes. E# is an F and B# is a C.

Close, but no cigar. In equal temperament, you would play the same approximation for both, but in just intonation with C# as the base, an E# is a third, which is around 14 cents lower than an equal temperament F. Yep, 14 cents - that's audible.
The B# is a small major seventh, which is almost 41 cents lower than the diminished octave (large major seventh) C#b. That's a very audible difference.

This distinction becomes more important when playing with fretless instruments, or instruments that are tuned to scales, like most blues harps.
When playing an equal temperament instrument with a just intonation one, you may want to avoid intervals where the pitch differs too much, or where the difference ruins harmonics. On a guitar, you can sharp the notes a bit when that's practical, but there's no easy way of lowering pitch except to push the neck forward a bit. If playing a third with a just intoned instrument, you might want to consider doing just that.

Note that there are double-sharps (which has its own symbol that resembles an X with very fat legs) and double-flats too. These should not be confused with whole tone intervals.


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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:10 am
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Yet there is no such thing as a #E and #B given the half step between BC and EF.

for us mere guitar slingers, yea,, it's not quite that important,,

but-- Tell THAT to a piano teacher! they'll slap you.

It largely depends on the key structure that you're in at the time

If you read through some of Beethoven scores, (I play piano too) there are places where in a song, where an F will be noted as an E#,

and then after a modulation, (key shift) that same note is now noted as F.

then lets not even go down the trails with double sharps and double flats! :shock:
(Moonlight Sonata first movement has examples of all of these..)


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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:50 am
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arth1 wrote:
modwiz wrote:
Things get silly sometimes. E# is an F and B# is a C.

Close, but no cigar. In equal temperament, you would play the same approximation for both, but in just intonation with C# as the base, an E# is a third, which is around 14 cents lower than an equal temperament F. Yep, 14 cents - that's audible.
The B# is a small major seventh, which is almost 41 cents lower than the diminished octave (large major seventh) C#b. That's a very audible difference.

This distinction becomes more important when playing with fretless instruments, or instruments that are tuned to scales, like most blues harps.
When playing an equal temperament instrument with a just intonation one, you may want to avoid intervals where the pitch differs too much, or where the difference ruins harmonics. On a guitar, you can sharp the notes a bit when that's practical, but there's no easy way of lowering pitch except to push the neck forward a bit. If playing a third with a just intoned instrument, you might want to consider doing just that.

Note that there are double-sharps (which has its own symbol that resembles an X with very fat legs) and double-flats too. These should not be confused with whole tone intervals.


That was really good. Thank you.

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Post subject: Re: C# major scale question
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:25 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
oneal lane wrote:
The C# major scale includes a #E and #B. Yet there is no such thing as a #E and #B given the half step between BC and EF.

Actually there is indeed E# and B# and you have just stumbled upon the reason.

C# Major scale:
C♯, D♯, E♯, F♯, G♯, A♯, and B♯

You can't have C and F in this scale, because you already have C# and F#. Consider how sloppy the notation would get if you had to put a natural symbol next to every 'C' and then use a sharp symbol every time a C# comes up after the natural. It would kind of defeat the purpose of having a key signature.


That's the fact Jack. :D When the key is C#.

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