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Post subject: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:24 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Hey guys. I just received my DIY Harley Bentont SG-style guitar kit. I am planning to use the guitar in studio and in live performances, so I did order a couple upgrades, such as better pickups (Gibson '57 Classic and '57 Classic Plus for neck and bridge, respectively), some shielding for the PUP cavities, etc.
Now the biggest issue I have (and the least knowledge in) is the guitar finish. I have read quite a lot of topics about it on these forums and various internet sites, but I prefer someone to tell me whether I am right or wrong in my specific case.

The guitar has a sealer layer on it, otherwise it's natural wood without any finish underneath. I want the guitar to be black in the end (think Black Beauty). If I understood correctly, I first have to sand the sealer a bit, but then I am unsure. Do I have to put a prime coat first and only then some tinting and lacquer in the end?
I wanted it to be a Nitro, not poly finish (resonance advantages), but I also found a link to the Wudtone online store which supposedly mix their own lacquers (and they are, judging by them, but of course they are biased as they're trying to sell their products, better than nitro). Are their finishes any good?
Anyway, so I reckon I should let each coat dry for about a day(?), then sand it down a bit, and add another coat and repeat the process until I am satisfied with the finish? And since it's not a metallic colour, I don't have to put a clear coat at the end?

Can anyone recommend a store in Europe where I could order online (especially Nitro seems very hard to come by and it can't be transported via planes, so UK would probably not be an option either, unless they ship it mainland via ships or something)?

If I am wrong in anything, please correct me. I really want it to be a beauty in the end :)

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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:07 am
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Hi Neimenljivi

Glad to see someone else taking on a finish here. It would be cool to see a finishing sub forum here but maybe eventually. I’m also doing a DIY refinish on my strat which will be a black strat. Taking me forever though :lol: I’m finally getting close to where I can buff and polish.

Being someone who is just delving into this world I’ll tread lightly on giving advice but will offer up some things that I wish I had known going in.

1. Check out this forum http://www.tdpri.com/forum/finely-finished/. The folks here are extremely knowledgeable. Not that you won’t find anyone here with the same skills, but it’s a good stomping ground for folks that live this stuff.
2. One of the most important tips I can give is patience. You’ll need LOTS of it.
3. I’m assuming your body is sealed but possibly not Grain filled. Do yourself a favor and GRAIN FILL. Especially on a black finish. I underestimated the importance of grain fill and its tripped me up. The spots where the issue presented itself for me will be under the pick guard but I decided not taking the easy path and do it right and drop filled leftover poly in those spots. Set me back a bit but it was the right thing to do… here’s where that patience came in handy and the appreciation for grain filling. You might get away with it on a transparent finish but I’m doing a black finish as well and it jumped out and bothered the crap out of me.
4. I’d go with yes… you should probably use a primer coat.

I’ll defer to others as to the finer points of the products your choosing. I went with Minwax Poly and have been very pleased. I've had little to no orange peel whatsoever so wet sanding has been pretty smooth (no pun intended). They do make a Lacquer and I’ve seen some positive feedback on that product over on the other forum but not sure what products you have across the pond. I’ll probably do Lacquer next time.

Good luck…

PLEASE keep us posted on your progress.

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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:55 am
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http://www.lmii.com/nitrocellulose-lacq ... vent-based

Or you can do my method ...

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php? ... #msg347229


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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:01 pm
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The absolutely most important tip I can give is: practice on scrap wood (same wood as the guitar body) with whatever tools, materials and products you choose.

And a very personal opinion: don't choose nitro for your first project.


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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:27 pm
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jmattis wrote:
The absolutely most important tip I can give is: practice on scrap wood (same wood as the guitar body) with whatever tools, materials and products you choose.

And a very personal opinion: don't choose nitro for your first project.


+1
Practice your method until you get it JUST the way you want it, then go for it. Or prep it, then take it to an auto-body shop and have them spray it. Working on guitars is a lot of fun, but sanding and spraying can be the frustrating part (for me). Makes a lot of mess, and everything has to be just so, it's a very temperamental part of the project. All I can say is that if your going to do it yourself, prepare, prepare, prepare, then prepare some more. Oh, did I mention prepare? With paint you can cut no corners. The quality of your tools, method, and technique will show in the finish. I wish there was a way (for the semi-talented finisher) to produce pro results. I'm really not trying to scare you, it's just not as easy as finish-suppliers make it sound. But, if you have limitless patience and are willing to take the time and trial I'm sure you can get good results. It's just a matter of how much of your life you're willing to put into this part of the project. OK, enough ramble from me. I'm starting to make myself panic.

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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:15 pm
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DarkPenguin, I definitely hope I won't need as many steps as you have already done :lol:

captainc - I wouldn't know whether it's grain-filled or not. http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_ ... gstyle.htm This is the guitar kit in question. What would be the result of the guitar not being grain-filled? I assume it's just aesthetic? What sort of difference in color are we talking about? :)

Luckily I have my dad helping me and he's done quite a lot of woodwork, he even built a guitar some 40 years ago (but not for himself, for a cousin), so while I realize it's not the same (building cabinets or some other stuff and doing the finish on them), it's certainly in the ballpark. He also has the equipment. He doesn't do woodwork for a living, but has a lot of experience nevertheless.
I do expect I'll gain some muscles from the sanding and I'll curse a lot at one point or another, but in the end I am sure it will be worth it :)

Thanks for all the links and advice so far, looking to read more (and I have about 20 tabs opened in Mozilla about stuff I have to read), I'll definitely post before-during-after pics once I am done :) If this little pet project turns out to be a guitar sounding as killer as I intend it to sound, I will probably make more in the future - some for me, some will be sold :)

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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:38 am
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"Grainfilling" is basically a step to fill in the pores of the grain so when you clear coat it, you don’t get low spots from the clear sinking in and thus having grain patterns show in the clear. If the body you bought has a sealer on it and its nice and flat, there’s a good chance you’re ok. I only point this out as this happened to me and I’m doing a black finish as well. If you want it smooth as glass make certain there are no pores.

Check out posts by Colt on the below threads. He explains the process very well. If your Dad is helping you with this and he has experience with woodworking, I'm sure you’re in good hands.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/finely-finis ... hread.html

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/finely-finis ... stion.html

As mentioned above, I’ve also read that Lacquer might not be the best choice for a first time finish. If you do go with Lacquer, make certain it is compatible with your paint by testing on scrap wood. I can't speak for the tonal difference but I'd have a hard time believing you'd notice that much of a difference if any between the two... if that were the case, I think Fender has a lot of tone problems with a lot of their products coming off the line. :wink:

Good luck with your adventure.

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Last edited by captainc on Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:40 am
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DarkPenguin wrote:


^^^

Love this :lol:

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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:04 pm
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captainc wrote:
Hi Neimenljivi

Glad to see someone else taking on a finish here. It would be cool to see a finishing sub forum here but maybe eventually. I’m also doing a DIY refinish on my strat which will be a black strat. Taking me forever though :lol: I’m finally getting close to where I can buff and polish.

Being someone who is just delving into this world I’ll tread lightly on giving advice but will offer up some things that I wish I had known going in.

1. Check out this forum http://www.tdpri.com/forum/finely-finished/. The folks here are extremely knowledgeable. Not that you won’t find anyone here with the same skills, but it’s a good stomping ground for folks that live this stuff.
2. One of the most important tips I can give is patience. You’ll need LOTS of it.
3. I’m assuming your body is sealed but possibly not Grain filled. Do yourself a favor and GRAIN FILL. Especially on a black finish. I underestimated the importance of grain fill and its tripped me up. The spots where the issue presented itself for me will be under the pick guard but I decided not taking the easy path and do it right and drop filled leftover poly in those spots. Set me back a bit but it was the right thing to do… here’s where that patience came in handy and the appreciation for grain filling. You might get away with it on a transparent finish but I’m doing a black finish as well and it jumped out and bothered the crap out of me.
4. I’d go with yes… you should probably use a primer coat.

I’ll defer to others as to the finer points of the products your choosing. I went with Minwax Poly and have been very pleased. I've had little to no orange peel whatsoever so wet sanding has been pretty smooth (no pun intended). They do make a Lacquer and I’ve seen some positive feedback on that product over on the other forum but not sure what products you have across the pond. I’ll probably do Lacquer next time.

Good luck…

PLEASE keep us posted on your progress.

When you apply a body sealer you are filling all the pores there is nothing to fill if there is that just means the body was not sanded properly. The sealer just applies a good hardened base so the paint does not get absorbed by the wood and allows for a smooth even Finnish.
Look into the history of old Fender guitars and the nitro finishes and you find under them its rock hard Fullerplast a clear chemical cured sealer.

A wood filler will be used while sanding before sealing to fill gouges or divots you may have put into the wood.

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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:51 am
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Yeah. I’ve learned some valuable lessons on my project. Its turning out pretty good for my skill level and available resources so can’t really complain, and the body I’m working with is one I can afford mistakes on but it’s been educational to say the least. This could very well be a future retirement hobby.

Incidentally, picked up some Meguiars Ultimate Compound. Great product for bringing back the gloss after the final wetsand.

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Post subject: Re: DIY Guitar finish - some advice please
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:55 pm
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Thanks for all the info guys :D
The whole process will take quite some time as I am not at home during the week due to attending university in a different city - and the weather isn't exactly ideal for doing the guitar finish as it's been raining constantly, so thus far me and my dad drilled the holes for a kill-switch, deepened the pickup cavities as the screws on the Gibson '57 PUPs are longer than those on the stock PUPs and figured out exactly how the kill-switch needs to be wired. He also bought a black nitro matte lacquer, so the next phase is, I guess, sanding and then applying the first coat of the lacquer.
So far so good :D A minor mischief while we were drilling, but nothing that can't be fixed (although, the only fix I would be capable off would be enlarging the hole a bit, but that isn't ideal since it's already quite close to the strap button, but luckily my dad has a better skill-set and will be able to fix it in a better way) :)

After years of my dad trying hard, I am finally interested in woodwork - as long as it's on a guitar :lol: So, like you, I will have learned a lot by the time we're finished, probably even a lot more than you because I know you know a thing or two more than me, with regards to woodwork :P I think a hobby like this can be very beneficial to you as a guitarist as well. The more you know about guitars, the better you can customize them to suit you, to sound and play better in the end. Besides, if you sell them off with a profit, you can meet the needs of your GAS, if you have it, and not be left with an empty bank account :lol:

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