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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:27 am
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IM4Tone wrote:
Very Interesting. I had read somewhere that there is a strong correlation between aptitude in music and mathematics....would that seem to be supported by this?????

I think that link only exists in trained musicians...I have no evidence of this, it's just a personal observation.

I am an untrained, illiterate, (mostly) self-taught musician, and I have a hard time with time signatures, etc. I can look at sheet music and figure out the key and the gist of the melody, but I couldn't play it properly to save my life.
However, let me listen to something and give me a few passes at a song and I'll add something reasonably productive and enriching...it may not be what's on the sheet music, but it will not sound terrible.
Likewise, I'm ok at math (never failed or did poorly--mostly made "B's" on the report cards, with the exception of Geometry, which I didn't get at all); however, I dislike math and don't get the subtleties of it whatsoever.
If you explain the concept to me and let me have a go, I'll generally get the answer mostly right (to a B-level student's ability)...but I'm not gifted in that sense.

I approach Music as an Art, not a Science. I am intrigued by those who can break down the scientific aspects of music, and greatly admire those who can approach both aspects.

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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:00 am
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Perhaps a slight digression with no intention to hijack, BUT:

I once met a lady who had a degree in Music Education from a prominent Music College. Her area was piano and voice. I invited her to my place to jam once, and to my surprise, she could not jam along if just given the key, chords, and time signature. She had no clue when to change chords, nor which chord came next (unless it was a simple 1-4-5 progression, and even struggled with that).

Previously, I had transcribed the synthesizer solo music to Del Shannon's Runaway for another person to play. I gave it to this lady and asked if she was familiar with the song, and she said no, but we gave it a try anyway. When we came to the part for her to 'solo', she did it flawlessly at full speed! :shock:

Hard to figure.

EDIT: And, another thing that was hard for me to understand regarding her musicianship was related to her perfect pitch. When we used the 'transpose' function on the keyboard, she was unable to play, since when she (for example) played a "C" and it came out a "D". Guess our brains function differently.

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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:53 am
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IM4Tone wrote:
Very Interesting. I had read somewhere that there is a strong correlation between aptitude in music and mathematics....would that seem to be supported by this?????

Looking at the average GC customer trying to figure out how to pay, I would be inclined to say yes, there is a negative correlation. And I bet that fewer than a handful of people here would be able to calculate where to put frets on an umarked fretboard, or given that A is 440 Hz be able to say the Hz for an E.

I think it's more that a very small percentage are Renaissance men, or polymaths if you like, and those handle the arts and sciences with equal ease. And no, Dubya was not one.


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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:13 am
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Thanks for the post, quite interesting.... :D

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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:58 pm
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IM4Tone wrote:
... she could not jam along if just given the key, chords, and time signature. She had no clue when to change chords, nor which chord came next (unless it was a simple 1-4-5 progression, and even struggled with that)
I have met a number of people like that. It depends on what they are used to.

I learned to play by ear and didn't study a lick of theory until I had already been playing a good 20 years or so. If you ask me to sight read I will fail miserably. I barely read music at all and the theory I chose to study didn't really require me to learn to read.

I know people that have never played by ear and they know their theory inside and out. They sight read on command but have difficulty hearing chord progressions and anticipating the changes. I don't think I've met anyone like that who was unable to improvise a simple melody (lead) line.

In those situations I would never look down my nose at those people. They often express a wish they had some of my ability and I express a wish I had some of theirs. I've only met a rare few people who are truly gifted in both theory and ear.

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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:28 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
...................In those situations I would never look down my nose at those people. They often express a wish they had some of my ability and I express a wish I had some of theirs. I've only met a rare few people who are truly gifted in both theory and ear.

Absolutely! I truly wish I had her ability and knowledge.
I doubt she wished she had mine :lol:
The thing is, seems to me she could do all the very difficult things proficiently; the easy stuff gave her difficulty. Back to the point....different brain functions.

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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:14 pm
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IM4Tone wrote:
The thing is, seems to me she could do all the very difficult things proficiently; the easy stuff gave her difficulty. Back to the point....different brain functions.

I can empathize with her. Someone hand me some sheet music, and I'm all fine.
But if they say "slow boogie in A" I'm going to sit paralyzed and not know what to play, because there's an endless amount of variations. I can improvise just fine, but only if the parameters have been established, without deviations. If you are going to play I-IV-vi-I, then don't add another chord, or I'll be lost.
If you need someone who can play music none of us have ever heard, or knows twenty different ways to play a D chord, transpose on the fly, or can play in a different beat and tempo than the drums or bass, I can do that. But if you show me a riff, I won't know how to play it unless it can be written down first, cause I'm unable to transform my view of you playing into my playing. Videos are completely useless for me.


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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:32 pm
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Well, arth, with respect, calculating (12th root of 2)^7 * 440 to figure out the frequency of the E without using a calculator, you'd have to have some awesome math skills to do it :lol:

I have always been told my hearing (pitch-wise), sucked, mostly because I couldn't sing, so that's something that anchored itself into my sub-consciousness. So I always tried approaching songs and stuff mathematically. Solos and everything. I can read the notes as far as duration goes, but for the life of me I can't read which note I would have to play :P I know people who can sight read and people who hear and have the theory behind it.
When I started playing guitar, I had someone teach me a couple basics but as far as soloing went, he could play almost anything but couldn't explain it to me why something sounds good and something sounds bad. It was something I needed, probably due to my mathematical approach. The teacher that's been teaching me for about a year now has both the ear and knows the theory behind it and that helps me the most probably. If someone says "well it sounds ok", that's not enough, I want to know why it sounds good or bad, what to do to turn the bad into good, why will it suddenly sound good if I just add one note somewhere.

Probably I also want to do stuff mathematically because I was/am very good at maths. The result there is either right or wrong and that's something that I like a lot.

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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:42 pm
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Neimenljivi wrote:
Well, arth, with respect, calculating (12th root of 2)^7 * 440 to figure out the frequency of the E without using a calculator, you'd have to have some awesome math skills to do it :lol:


Who said anything about not using a calculator (or slide rule)? My point was that most musicians wouldn't know how to calculate it, because they're not really all that comfortable with maths. Less so than the average person, I would think.

(But as happens, in this particular case, you can do it without a calculator too. A-E is a fifth, which has a 3:2 relation to the root. So 440*3/2 = 660 Hz. It's a tiny bit off for equal temperament tuning, but only by about two cents, and it's spot on for an instrument that's tuned in perfect fifths like a violin.)


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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:06 pm
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Ah sorry, I didn't read it careful enough :)
Didn't know about that shortcut for fifths, nice to know it :)

I think that the reason most musicians aren't as comfortable with maths is because if you start playing guitar young, you usually (but it, of course, depends on how your parents raised you and how involved were they in your school stuff) spend more time playing guitar than studying. Or you just feel to lazy to study afterwards. Many rock gods played guitar day and night while they were young. There are some, of course, like May, who has a PhD.
If we put a third of the time we put into learning to play an instrument into maths, for instance, I think we'd all be very good at it.
Generally, I believe the brain of a musician is more trained to various divisions than the brain of someone who never played an instrument. While playing, you don't think about "ah, that's an eight note, so it's gotta last x-time in a 4/4 yBPM", you just play the note. Even though the duration of the note is based on the division of 1 bar in 8 equally long time-frames (if we're talking about eight notes).
So, if anything, I think the brain of a musician would be more apt to different mathematical operations as they'd feel more natural.

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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:50 pm
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Neimenljivi wrote:
Ah sorry, I didn't read it careful enough :)
Didn't know about that shortcut for fifths, nice to know it :)

I think that the reason most musicians aren't as comfortable with maths is because if you start playing guitar young, you usually (but it, of course, depends on how your parents raised you and how involved were they in your school stuff) spend more time playing guitar than studying. Or you just feel to lazy to study afterwards. Many rock gods played guitar day and night while they were young. There are some, of course, like May, who has a PhD.
If we put a third of the time we put into learning to play an instrument into maths, for instance, I think we'd all be very good at it.
Generally, I believe the brain of a musician is more trained to various divisions than the brain of someone who never played an instrument. While playing, you don't think about "ah, that's an eight note, so it's gotta last x-time in a 4/4 yBPM", you just play the note. Even though the duration of the note is based on the division of 1 bar in 8 equally long time-frames (if we're talking about eight notes).
So, if anything, I think the brain of a musician would be more apt to different mathematical operations as they'd feel more natural.


Good points there. But I still think there are more Nigel Tufnels out there than Tom Lehrers.

I overheard a music teacher explain to a kid about why a triangle wave sounded harsher than a sine wave, and the explanation was "you see, the wave is pointy, and all the little points rasps against the speaker". I was unsure whether he was being profound or just stupid.


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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:06 am
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Neimenljivi wrote:
"ah, that's an eight note, so it's gotta last x-time in a 4/4 yBPM", you just play the note. Even though the duration of the note is based on the division of 1 bar in 8 equally long time-frames

arth1 wrote:
A-E is a fifth, which has a 3:2 relation to the root. So 440*3/2 = 660 Hz. It's a tiny bit off for equal temperament tuning, but only by about two cents


Childhood math trauma sufferer inflicted by mathematical sadists, right about now I feel as though I'm caught in a trap, with an overwhelming need to knaw my own leg off.


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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:42 am
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Hahahah a very good explanation yeah, arth :lol: I just hope the kid was under 10 so he didn't feel like he had a stupid guitar teacher :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:33 am
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Neimenljivi wrote:
Hahahah a very good explanation yeah, arth :lol: I just hope the kid was under 10 so he didn't feel like he had a stupid guitar teacher :lol:

Probably less - smaller than the keyboard, feet dangling. Much like the tiny kid I saw struggling up the stairs with a guitar gig bag bigger than himself. I asked whether I could help, and was told in no uncertain terms "I got it!"

I could never become a music teacher. Those kids might be the next Rick Wakeman and Jimi Hendrix. That's some responsibility the teachers take on there!


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Post subject: Re: Way Cool
Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:40 am
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Then at least the teacher didn't lose his dignity in front of the kid, but I really hope he is a better teacher at other areas :P

I don't think I could seriously teach anyone either. Although I have a feeling I will start teaching my cousin and nephew in a couple years' time (they are 2 and 2 and a half atm, and the younger one says [translated in English] "gital" - meaning guitar - every time he sees me and wants us to play it :D he's cute). Gotta say I look forward to the challenge, but I am also a bit scared of it. Like you said, responsibility is huge when teaching the children. :)

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