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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:04 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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I think more needs to be said about how much the construction of the instrument affects the tone.

Think about it--if it only the strings and pickups mattered, it would be possible to take the loaded pickguard off a Strat and slap it on anything and it would sound like a Strat.

But in reality, putting that pickguard on an acoustic or a 335 or a Telecaster or a Les Paul Jr or an SG or a Dobro or...you get my point. There's no way that any/all of those instruments would sound like a Strat, even with the same strings and pickups/electronics. The construction of the instrument makes a difference.

Likewise, an instrument built to specific specifications with specific materials (bridge, tuners, nut, and yes WOOD) would undoubtedly affect the sound, be it minuscule or drastic differences.

I don't think wood is the end-all, be-all to a good guitar--my favorite guitar is a MIM Telecaster whose body is made of Poplar with an Ash Veneer Top (!)--but to say it has little or no difference just isn't completely true.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:36 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Now just convince this guy:


The point of, wood and other parts of the guitar having an affect on the sound (tone) is provable. However, the testing method needs to be able to measure the difference. You don't use a measuring stick to weigh something. This reminds me of politics because of all the argumentative tactics employed to disprove the idea of tone-wood. People will take facts and interweave subjective ideas in and around them, then restate the fact as if this proves all. These types of logical fallacies drive me nuts, because they seem correct until you peel back a couple layers of the argument. Some people can hear the difference and that's proof enough for them. Some people can't hear the difference and therefore no one else is allowed too, or they are ridiculed. I have yet to see a scientific method of testing that takes into account all variables and is measured consistently.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:19 am
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Rock Star
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That video is what directed me to the English Duncan video that I mentioned in my OP.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:22 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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If it doesn't matter, then how are semi-hollow bodies supposed to work. I know that they (testers) immediately say only solid body guitars, but that doesn't mean there is no evidence to be found in hollow or semi-hollow body guitars that applies to this. They are an electric that is built so that the acoustics are louder and exaggerated (for lack of a better term). The point is, they have electric guitar pickups and they sound different than a solid body don't they? That alone is proof that unplugged acoustics matter. Maybe only a little, but they matter. Sometimes, the difference between a good tone and a historic tone is that extra little something. Now if you're going through a cheap-o amp every guitar you plug in may sound the same. But, through a good tone-transparent amp and setup, these little differences can shine through. The thing about the tests demonstrated is that they are measuring only the frequency response and while that is a measurement, it is not the entire measure of a tone. It's just what they could think of. You can have a clean tone and a distorted tone with the exact same FR and they obviously sound different. That's not the greatest example, it just what I could think of as I write this. Wow, I seem to be somewhat passionate about this subject. I guess many people are.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:41 pm
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Rock Star
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Deluxe Matt wrote:
They are an electric that is built so that the acoustics are louder and exaggerated (for lack of a better term). The point is, they have electric guitar pickups and they sound different than a solid body don't they? That alone is proof that unplugged acoustics matter. Maybe only a little, but they matter.


Not the acoustics of the guitar. No. Well, kind of, in a way, but no. The pickups don't pickup any acoustic energy unless there is a Piezo or a mic. The pickups in electric guitars are magnetic pups. They sense only one thing; changes in the magnetic field around them. They then generate (induce) a current in the wire(s) based on that changing field. You are correct in identifying that hollow body and semi-hollow body guitars do sound different even if they are equipped with the same magnetic pickups as solid body guitars. The difference can only be attributed to the physical properties of the guitar, not the acoustic energy it creates. Pickups don't sense that so how can it? They sense string vibrations. It's the way the body affects the vibration of the strings. Acoustic energy might play a role in the way the strings vibrate but it still proves there's more to it than just pickups. As I mentioned in my OP a Gibson 335 with the same pickups and the same amp and the same guy playing as a Les Paul sounds different. When all of the other variables do not change except the size, mass and design of the guitar it makes a difference. This indicates the body of the guitar does in actual fact have an affect on tone. Once a person finally admits that truth they are then faced with another step of logical progression. If it's not just pickups and there are variables that affect strings then there must be a few other variables in that equation as well. If the body affects tone then all the properties of the body will come into play. There's really no way around it. It's no longer a question of 'if.' It's a question of 'how much.' I identified the variables in my OP. Wood selection, construction design, size, mass, density, hardness, stiffness. There really is no room for interpretation here. The naysayers have to remain silent as their "pickups only" argument is a losing battle. If the hollowness of a guitar can affect tone that means the body affects tone and it's not just the pickups. I have looked at this thing forwards, backwards and sideways. I just don't see any way around it. The physical, actual guitar affects tone by way of how it affects the vibration of the strings. Once you allow for that fact tone wood comes back into the equation along with neck joint, body size and design, the whole deal.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:31 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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I used the word "acoustics" too loosely. I should have stated it as "resonate properties as it affects string vibration characteristics" but I was being hastily. I have always thought of acoustics as any part of the guitar that resonates or vibrates with the string along with the sound produced, but I see that is to broad of an explanation of acoustics and can be confusing to this argument.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:21 am
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Rock Star
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Deluxe Matt wrote:
That alone is proof that unplugged acoustics matter.

BMW-KTM wrote:
There's really no way around it.

With this kind of statements, it's easy to achieve the end of the tone wood debate :wink:
(@Matt; might I rephrase your sentence to "that alone is proof that the total design of the guitar matters"..?)

BMW-KTM wrote:
It's no longer a question of 'if.' It's a question of 'how much.'

But this, luckily, keeps it going.
If a difference in sound is inaudible, is there a difference?
Is there a characteristic sound for any chosen wood species?
Etc.


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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:58 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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"Hello people, S.G. here. Damnit, I know how to play guitar! Look at all these guitars I have! I know what I'm talking about, see! My videos teach you major and minor scales, 4/4 and 3/4 timing...and that's all you need to know to make it as a touring musician!"

That guy does have some significant shows under his belt..but his videos are waaaaayyyy too defensive. A real professional instructor would never let the internet get under his or her skin in such a manner.


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