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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:24 am
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Great post. I came to much the same conclusion a few years ago after debates about his on the Stratocaster forum. I think ultimately everything attached to the guitar effects overall tone, how-be-it ever so small. After all its physics, the guitar is all about vibration. But having said that, given that most everyone plays with a lot of "effects" pedals and distortion, well then any advantage gained by having a solid body with really great resonance is lost to general shock to the inner ear by high volume and distortion.

I have a couple of Stratocasters that have marvelous acoustic qualities. They sound so nice and vibrate all day long acoustically, and they sound great on a clean amp or a little reverb. But start adding a lot of gain and distortion and it all goes by the wayside, I cannot tell them from my clunker Strats.

Again, great post. Warning prepare to be assailed. I have seen nothing on these forums that gets anger up more than the tone wood debate.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:15 am
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I like the fact that your essay factor in the instrument's construction (which I feel has a greater influence on tone/sound more than any other factor (discounting the pickups themselves).

However, I do think combinations of factors in a solidbody's wood can add up to a distinctly (and noticeably) different tone. Case in point:
If I took a specific loaded Stratocaster pickguard and placed it on a Strat with a hardtail mahogany body and a maple neck with a rosewood fretboard, there would undoubtedly be some discernible difference from a Strat with a hardtail basswood body and a maple neck with a maple fingerboard.

The opposite extremes of the types, densities and properties of these particular necks, fingerboards and bodies--even though they have similar construction--would add up to a discernably different tone.

I think the error that certain players make is saying, "A guitar with a rosewood fretboard is always warmer or richer than a maple fretboard," or "A guitar with a maple body will always sound brighter than a guitar with a mahogany body," or so on.

The way the body was cured/dried, the growth and density of that particular tree (or even genus of tree) and the processing of the finished product will make small differences; each component or individual part ADDED TOGETHER will affect tone.

Case in point II:
If I took the loaded pickguard from my alder-bodied '62 Reissue Strat with a maple neck and a rosewood fretboard and then placed it on a similarly constructed maple body with a maple neck and fretboard, there would undoubtedly be a discernible (if minor) difference.

Would it be enough to make my pickups/electronics sound "bad"? Probably not, but it COULD possibly sound different enough that I might not like configuration #2 as well as configuration #1.

Guitars are like romantic attraction; it's not any individual thing that makes a person fall in love with another person. The personality, demeanor, intelligence and appearance of the person all add up to what we like--or dislike--about our partners.

All those things--plus life experiences--are what make the person what they are.

Likewise, a guitar's construction, materials, and overall "feel" are what makes it a "good" or "bad" instrument in our own respective eyes, ears or hands.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:10 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Are you claiming that
(a) pickups don't vibrate, or
(b) pickups use their own laws of physics where moving the string produces current, but moving the pickup does not?

I'm saying the pickups read the vibrations of the strings. They do not read the vibration of the wood. Wood is not magnetic so it can't be detected by the pups. The resonance frequency of the wood is a damping factor. It doesn't add to the tone. It detracts. The vibration of the wood itself is so small with regard to amplitude that any movement of the pups induced by way of being connected to the wood would pale in comparison to the sweep of the vibrating strings and as such any constructive or destructive interference would be so negligible that you would never hear it and I actually doubt it would even show up on an oscilloscope.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:23 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
arth1 wrote:
Are you claiming that
(a) pickups don't vibrate, or
(b) pickups use their own laws of physics where moving the string produces current, but moving the pickup does not?

I'm saying the pickups read the vibrations of the strings. They do not read the vibration of the wood. Wood is not magnetic so it can't be detected by the pups.

Obviously, but no-one is claiming that either. What I'm saying is that the pickups, especially if they are wood mounted and not pickguard mounted like on strats, will vibrate WITH the wood.
Whether it's the pickup or the string vibrating is irrelevant - the pickup does not pick up the movement of the strings, but the difference in the magnetic field, whether it is caused by a string moving or the pickup moving.

BMW-KTM wrote:
The resonance frequency of the wood is a damping factor. It doesn't add to the tone. It detracts. The vibration of the wood itself is so small with regard to amplitude that any movement of the pups induced by way of being connected to the wood would pale in comparison to the sweep of the vibrating strings and as such any constructive or destructive interference would be so negligible that you would never hear it and I actually doubt it would even show up on an oscilloscope.


You're in for a surprise. Check it. Stand in front of a speaker with your hand muting the strings (but not holding the body), and record what comes out of the jack.


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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:41 pm
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I have been a gigging musician for decades. I promise you I have stood on stage in close proximity to my amp between songs with my hands muting the strings, with both Strats and Les Pauls. What I hear is the noise of the amp and stomp boxes and sometimes interference from various sources of EMR. If the strings are muted the wood will not be vibrating unless acted upon by some other external force. Any movement of my hand while muting the strings will be much slower than 20 movements per second. My hands just don't move 20 oscillations per second. Any variation with respect to the spacial relationship between the pickups and the strings due to my moving hands would induce a signal that is extremely low in amplitude because my hands would't be moving nearly as far as the sweep of a string. It would also be subsonic. In both cases I would not hear it and neither would you. Unless you're an alien being from another world with a sense of hearing capable of discerning frequencies outside the normal range for human beings.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:51 pm
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I agree with your article, I remember reading that would types handle harmonics quite differently - more or less reflection back into the vibrating string. That seems consistent with your main point. Also, I posted in another topic about putting a neck plate between the neck and body to reduce twang. That also is consistent with this thinking. Kudos.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:14 am
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jmattis wrote:
That is somewhat beside the point - and anyway, it's a statement that kills conversation :wink:

First of all, the effect of a player's state of mind is a very significant factor on almost every skill level ("I feel the mojo, I play better").
And second, these "trivial" differences are significant in the highest skill levels, too - e.g. Clapton's blocked tremolo instead of a hardtail...


I'd probably be more prone to fully agree with this sentiment if I weren't constantly bombarded with technical trivia discussions mostly from people that barely have a grasp on music fundamentals. :roll:

Worst case example, one guy that constantly goes on and on about Kemper modelers, what strings and string gauges are better, and various tone wood characteristics that can't differentiate between a major and a minor chord and can't accurately count out a measure. :x

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:37 am
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Hmm. People discuss about their health regularly, even if they don't know the difference between lobotomy and laparotomy.
Just tolerate, that guy may become the next [insert the name of your favorite, or most hated, pop idol].


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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:55 am
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BMW-KTM, excellent write up! I myself am a Yes and No person when this topic comes up. I think that you covered it well, however, you know as well as I do that it will not end the debate. Like politics and religion, no matter what the facts may be, some people will not change their mind.

I am glad you took the time to explain, I will be keeping a personal copy on my laptop.


8)

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:38 am
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omar59 wrote:
I will be keeping a personal copy on my laptop.

That's encouraging to hear but the details I gave are less important than the principle truth upon which they are founded.
If you only take one thing away from my observations, take away this:
Tone starts not with the pickups but with the strings.
That is the key to understanding the whole issue.
Anything that can affect how the strings vibrate will affect tone.
Once you arrive at that conclusion, and it is unmistakably correct, the rest falls into place.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:01 am
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I've been learning a lot from building cigar box guitars and bedpan guitars. It's pretty fascinating. On those, what changes the tone the most besides the pickups is how hollow I leave the cigar box cavity. If I load the box with a solid block of wood, it has a much heavier, punchy tone with more sustain than if I just use just one neck block for construction. I have one that has a Dano pickup on it with a short mounting block for the neck and a short block for the tailpiece. The box is 12"x8".
The center of the box it hollow and it sounds pretty amazing for a CBG. The type of wood I use seems to have no bearing on the tone. I've tried different types in the same box, like poplar, maple, pine and oak, using the same neck, bridge, strings etc. But tweaking the cavity seems to change the tone.

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:50 am
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Interesting dissertation ! Thanks Beemer !

I own Guitars made from Alder, Ash, Mahogany, Paulownia (Empress Wood) and Adirondack Spruce with necks which are Maple, Mahogany, Birch w/ Maple, Rosewood and Ebony fingerboards.

Unfortunately, at this juncture on the road to calling myself a Guitar Player, I sound equally bad on each !! :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Keep up the good work !!

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:03 am
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Excellent thread/post Matt! I read it in its entirety and liked it and will remember about the strings. Thank you for posting!

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:05 am
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Even a guitar pick can change the tone of your guitar. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Hopefully the end of the tone wood debate
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:21 pm
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I'm a little rusty on my wave-superposition, but it seems to me that if the string and the body/neck/tuners/anything else in the system are vibrating at a given frequency in phase with one another it should accentuate that frequency. Similarly if they're out of phase with one another it will detract from that frequency's audibility. You can just add or subtract the amplitude of the waves, right?

Different pieces of wood, or any other material will have different resonant characteristics, that is their tendency to vibrate at different frequencies due to their size and density and any number of other physical trait. Whether or not that's a valid reason to buy a guitar is a totally different argument.

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