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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:00 am
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yoda, as I said, it depends on how much drive you've got going and it is, of course, as everything else in music, a totally subjective thing whether you like the sound of delayed signal being amplified, compressed, overdriven. I also didn't mean that if you run the delay pre-amp, you should only play clean tones. As I said, any OD/D/F units that are placed between the guitar and the delay unit will sound the same, with delay turned on, as if the delay was in FX loop. The difference is very big, though, if you use the amp's built in OD/D/F channel/effects (if it has such channel or effects). And as I said, it won't sound bad if you have sort of a bluesy gain-ish type of sound on that channel, but a full blown distortion will sound weird for most people. There are, obviously, people who like that sound, like you, but I was trying to explain to grainslayer why it's preferable for most people to have delay in FX loop and why it doesn't matter if you have it in FX loop if the amp doesn't have OD/D/F channel/effects onboard.

grainslayer - if you do have a delay effect and a distortion effect, the difference will be clear to you if you first put the distortion effect between the guitar and delay, feeding it into a clean amp sound (which is what it would sound like if you had a FX loop and put the delay in the loop and had an overdriven sound on the amp) and then put the delay effect in front of the distortion effect, again feeding it into a clean amp (or, in this case, you don't need to have a distortion effect and can feed it into a distortion channel of the amp, if the amp has one). This will show you the reason why majority of people prefer delay in FX loop. Again, if the amp isn't overdriven, it won't matter whether the delay is in the FX loop or just behind all the overdrive/distortion/fuzz effects units, it will sound the same.

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:33 am
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While I agree in theory with everything Neimenljivi has said I feel I must add that it has always been my experience that the differences in placement are not as profound as many people imply them to be. Make no mistake, there is a noticable difference in sound whether you place a time based effect like chorus, flange, delay, etc. before or after a gain stage like amp overdrive, pedal overdrive or pedal distortion. You can hear it. I'm just not convinced it makes the whoppingly significant difference that some people make it out to be. In some cases I find it best to put a time based effect before rather than after. Chorus for example. You can add a fair amount of chorus before your overdrive pedal. It won't sound the same as if it were after but it is still useful. When it's placed before the overdrive the chorus still fattens up the tone but it loses some of its warbling, which is one of the reasons many people don't like chorus. They don't like the warbling.

Here is the rule of thumb when stringing two or more pedals together.
The final tone is most coloured by the last pedal in the chain, whatever chain that may be. If you have 8 pedals on your board and you use 1, 3 & 7 (in that order) for your rhythm tone then your rhythm tone sounds most like pedal 7. If 1 is compression, 3 is chorus and 7 is OD then the OD pedal is what you hear most. If you would rather the chorus pedal be more apparent because you want to sound more like Zakk, then switch the positions of 3 & 7.

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:44 am
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I just thought of a caveat so I should also add that I rarely if ever, crank a pedal all the way up. I don't like the muddiness that comes from cranking a pedal .... of any genre. IMO, almost all pedals sound better on the lower half of the dial. That's my preference. If it is your custom to dime your pedals then you may experience a more significant difference in tone due to placement.

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:48 am
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Loops are not just for delay pedals. I think a final EQ, after the signal is fully processed and heading to the power amp is a good choice. I like my clean boost in that spot, so that all I'm getting is boost and not more overdrive.
My Sonic Stomp pedal recommends being placed in the loop if possible. I feel having some separation of a few effects in the loop makes it easier to isolate just what you're getting from them.

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:02 am
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I don't own any choruses or flangers, so I intentionally didn't mention them and how they behave if they are in FX loop or in front of amp, in front of gains, etc., but like BMW said, they are in the same category as delays. I don't have any experience with how they behave. Anyway, what sounds best for you is the best way to have it wired.

For most people it's:
guitar -> (possibly a buffer first) -> tuner -> wah -> gain stuff -> amp -> FX loop -> modulation effects (chorus, flanger,..) -> delays
If an amp doesn't have a FX loop, it's the same as in first case, with the only exception that amp is the last.

Anyway, I first feed from guitar to Tuner -> T-Rex Alberta II (overdrive unit) -> Dunlop Crybaby -> Big Muff -> Delay -> Amp. In the previous amp, I had the delay in FX loop, but the amp also had a gain channel.

I do agree with BMW that generally, at least in my opinion, it doesn't make much difference which of the gain effects is before the other one, when they are activated separately (or any pedal for that matter). However, it does make a big difference for me which pedal is first if I activate two of the gain pedals at the same time. Like he said, the last activated pedal will be the last one to shape the tone and thus will have the biggest influence.

Also like Drew said, there is other stuff people place in the loop, besides time and modulation effects. A lot of people prefer to have a volume pedal there because pre-amp, it works the same as the knobs on your guitar (meaning, if you have an overdriven sound, the sound will clean up when you role the pots back, or, with the volume pedal, when you go towards heels position), whereas in the FX loop a volume pedal will make your amp louder or quieter without affecting any other parameters like gain.

In the end, what I'd do is ignore most of what we're saying and try out different combinations of pedal placement and choose the one which works for you. We are all speaking based on our own preference of sound and usage of the effects, which is as biased as it gets :)

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:25 am
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I have seen guys use a small P/A snake for their pedal boards and it's an idea that I have often considered experimenting with. With the snake you can have multiple cables running back and forth between the board and the amp but only one cable on the floor to place or tape down or trip on. A four channel snake is the simplest way to go but the sky is the limit. You can run AC power to your board for your DCBrick with one, run an instrument cable from the last pedal to the amp input with the second one and use the remaining two to run to and from your effects loop for those pedals you want in the loop. Keeps your setup and tear down quick and easy and keeps the stage floor uncluttered.

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:47 am
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Nice, good one mate :) I will be sure to remember that if I ever own an amp with a FX loop again :)

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:22 pm
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One of the oddities of pedal ordering is that I strongly prefer to have chorus and chorus only before fuzz/distortion. When fuzz/distortion is first, you get a chorus of the distorted effect, which sounds weird, especially with unpredictable germanium fuzz.

Otherwise, I want my fuzz to be first in the order, to be better controlled by the guitar volume knob.
And quite often being the only effect.


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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:14 pm
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Thanks for the info.im slowly learning :? ...I'm happy with my little vox amp without effects loop so everything will be ran though the front..I did a little research and the combined power draw from all my pedals together is a little under 160ma.my new boss psa 120 adapter has a max power output of 500ma.i will only be using a few pedals at a time so I should be able to just buy a one spot 5plug daisy chain adapter for my boss psa 120 without issues correct? My other option is a 1700ma output one spot adapter that comes with a 8plug daisy chain.one spot says I can run up to twenty pedals with this power supply..I can't see ever having twenty pedals..lol...I am looking at a wah and probably a few more pedals in the future but can't see ever running more than a couple at a time..


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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:49 pm
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Yes, correct, however, if you have less than 5 effects, you will have to shield the left-over plugs, otherwise they will produce hum, noise and perhaps even a few cracking sounds if they touch. Depending on the quality of the effects, the quality of the power adapter and daisy chain cables, you might still get some noise.
You would do yourself a big favor if you invested in a power supply unit. I would be happy to recommend mine, works great and I really can't say anything about it, but there's a couple chaps here in my country that make it and don't really ship worldwide. So unless you're from Central Europe, you can't get it. The reason power supply units work so well is that they usually feature several isolated/grounded sections within the unit. That means that if one effect is noisier, that noise won't "bleed" through to the other effects and won't get noisier (again, it all depends on the quality of everything that is connected to the effects), it will be "contained" within that isolated section (so if you have two effects within the same section, they can both be affected). The problem with power adapters and daisy chaining them is that there are no isolated sections, thus, the hum will be louder.
Gain effects and low quality effects usually produce more noise (and obviously, the higher gain, the bigger the noise)

Also you might want to know that delay effects use quite a lot of current, so if you introduce a delay effect in the mix, the 500 mA power adapter might not be enough (to run all these effects + a delay effect, but it will be enough to run a delay effect only).
Still, you should not overkill the effects with current supply. So 1700 might be a bit too much for your current needs (no pun intended).

If you opt for batteries, don't use them for delay effects as they'll eat up those batteries sooner than you can buy new ones. I'd use batteries only for a tuner, if I wouldn't have any alternative. I generally try to avoid using batteries myself, as there are less possibilities for something to happen.

Anyway, here is the link to those guys who made my Power Supply, they've got an English version of the site with lots of useful info, here's some regarding powering the pedals:
http://jamitfx.com/tips-tricks/powering-your-pedals

You could also try contacting them, they might even make you the Power Supply and ship it to you, but I am sure you'd have to pay in advance. They are nice guys so even though they don't usually ship worldwide, perhaps they would make an exception :)
The Juice Deluxe is the one I've bought and it works wonderfully.

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:16 pm
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Thanks neimenljivi..I have read about the possibility of extra noise from the daisy chains.im currently using an ibanez ts9,boss,and mxr pedals..all of which I feel are good quality manufacturers.I think I will just buy a 5plug one spot daisy chain and see how it goes.once I buy a pedalboard I will look into a better power supply if needed...Any boss bcb-60 pedalboard users out there???


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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:11 pm
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If you buy Ibanez you can also get a 3 way power splitter as well as the 5 way. If that helps. I've tried a few different brands of splitters and I find the Ibanez ones last longer before failure. I've never got less than 5 years out of an Ibanez. I tried a Planet Waves one and got about 18 months. Can't remember the brand of that really lousy one I bought that failed after a couple of weeks. I'm hard on daisy chain power splitters though. I mostly use them for temporary setups where I'm trying different configurations so I'm plugging and unplugging a lot. I don't use them on my pedal boards because they don't have enough reach to satisfy my need to keep it all looking clean and tidy with the wires mostly hidden.

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:33 pm
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I use this and am very satisfied.

http://proguitarshop.com/pedaltrain-3-pt3sc.html

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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:17 pm
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j.4knee wrote:
I use this and am very satisfied.

http://proguitarshop.com/pedaltrain-3-pt3sc.html


I've been looking at the pedaltrains.i really thought I wanted the bcb-60 but I think a non powered board will be a better option..I would like room for 6 to 8 boss sized pedals and a wah..I figure that size would be more than enough room for whatever I decide to use.


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Post subject: Re: Thoughts on a pedalboard...
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:24 am
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grainslayer wrote:
j.4knee wrote:
I use this and am very satisfied.

http://proguitarshop.com/pedaltrain-3-pt3sc.html


I've been looking at the pedaltrains.i really thought I wanted the bcb-60 but I think a non powered board will be a better option..I would like room for 6 to 8 boss sized pedals and a wah..I figure that size would be more than enough room for whatever I decide to use.


The pedaltrain boards have brackets to attach a Pedal Power II block to the underside of the board. If you look at the photo of my board, you can see it through the slats.

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